Book-Keeping, Physical Geography and Meteorology.

Lecturer—E.C. Buckley.

Book-keeping.—Explanation of commercial terms—Documents used in ordinary, business transactions—The various books used in book-keeping—Single and double entry, &c.

Physical Geography and Meteorology.—Wind, dew, mist, and cloud—Formation of springs, brooks, and rivers—Snowfields and glaciers. The Barometer, Thermometer, Anemometer, and Rain Gauge—Methods of observing—Atmospheric pressure—Prevailing winds—Temperature—Distribution of rain—Causes of variation in climate—Influence of ocean currents—Influence of mountains—Law of storms—Characteristics of the New Zealand climate in their relations to agriculture, &c., &c.

It is for 1884, but is the latest one we have, and is to all intents and purposes good enough for the present purpose. It gives you the objects and terms and so on. It says here the farm is carried on, as nearly as possible, upon economic principles. Then the course of instruction: students are required to take part in the daily work of the farm, ploughing and so on. Then there are lectures on chemistry and a laboratory, the sciences, land surveying, and so on; but beyond that, and it is a point I insist upon carrying out, we have practical instruction; it is not only upon the farm, but practical instruction in the sciences, such as chemistry. We have a laboratory, the finest in New Zealand. As it states here, the work is carried on daily in the chemical laboratory; they go through a regular course of practical chemistry; the same in the biological laboratory, that is the microscopic work, examining, say, plants attacked by rust and smut; vegetable anatomy, and so on. The same with land surveying; they are taught in the field. Then we have carpenters' and page 8

William E. Ivey Esq. continued, 22nd March 1886.

blacksmiths' shops; they are taught practically there Before a student passes us and gets a final certificate he has to be able to shoe a horse, for instance, well. There is one point I would like to make in connexion with the teaching, and that is this : we have two practical fanners as examiners.

777. Disconnected with the institution?—Disconnected altogether, to ensure that the practical work is done properly. These men attend four times a year. They attend during the harvesting, and put the students those I intend to pass, for the final certificate at any rate, through a course with the reaper and binder, and everything connected with the harvesting and stacking; they then come when we have got in the harvest and put them through a course with the threshing machine. The threshing machine is worked by the students, except the engine-driver; we have another man to instruct them how to feed, &c., but most of his time is occupied in going from one thing to the other; the whole of the work is practically done by the students, under the direction of the engine-driver, so that they have a thorough practical knowledge; there is no mistake about it. Those farmers come and examine in that; then they come about the time when the wheat is being drilled, and then they examine them in ploughing—they have to pass in ploughing you understand. They very often pull the plough to pieces—a double-furrow plough—and tell them to put it together and start work, and if they cannot do that they will not pass them. Then, again, they attend at the sheep shearing; so there is no doubt as to the practical work; if they do pass these men, they must be really well up in practical agriculture. So there is no doubt as to the practical part

778. Do the same farmers attend each examination?—Yes, so far; but that is not necessary, they are two of the best farmers we can get anywhere near, but it is not at all necessary that the same two should always attend.

779. While you are upon that point, how is the farm worked; you are director of the farm as well as of the college?—Yes.

780. Under you have they a practical man—a working farmer?—No, I am the practical man.

781. And do you employ labour?—Yes, we have perhaps three men or four men; we have a man in charge of each department, as it were—one man with horses, our at the head of the stock and dairy, one man head of the machinery, and so on; in fact three men and an odd labourer are all we have in the place; all the rest of the work is done by the students.

782. Do they each take a turn?—Yes. There is a regular timetable. In connexion with that I would like to remark that the whole of the work is done by contract—that is practically the whole; now and then, of course, certain work we cannot do that way.

783. What work do you refer to?—All the farm work.

784. By the students?—By the students. For instance, we pay for a double-furrow ploughing, first-class, 5s. 6d. an acre; second, 5 S.F.; third, 4s. 6d.

786. Per acre?—Per acre; and then we charge for each horse 2s. 8d. a day. For harrowing, we pay 7 ½d. an acre; for rolling, from 9d. to 1s.; drilling, 1s. 1d., and so on.

787. What can the students earn in a year?—It depends altogether on the students. I have paid some of the students as much as £24 or £25 in a year.

788. That comes off the £65?—No, I make a point of that—that has nothing to do with the parents. It does not go off the fees paid by parents. The average is about £12 to £15. I may say that the fee was £45 last year.

789. That is the fee for students?—Yes, but it has been increased this year to £65.

790. Do I understand you to say that you have given up all experimental fanning upon the farm?—Except what is carried ont in the ordinary course. That is experiments with manures upon the turnip crop or any other crop, and of course the different rotations. We carry out experiments as much as possible in that direction, but there is no experimental farm—no purely experimental farm; in fact the whole farm is in a measure experimental, and yet it is carried on upon economic principles.

791. Your desire has been more to show how the ordinary crops can be grown to best advantage, rather than to show what other crops the soil and climate may be suited for?—Yes, simply because I have been precluded from the latter by want of funds. I should like to carry on both, but this is essentially what we want to do—we want to teach farming, and economic farming to begin with, and also scientific farming, because I consider that scientific farming is economic farming in a great many instances.

792. It is proposed in this colony to establish a great many farm schools and one central college, to which youths from the farm schools can be drafted. Is it your opinion that that system ought to work satisfactorily?—I quite agree that there should be one central college and so many farm schools. I have no doubt that that is the best plan to be adopted. Of course I can hardly know the position of things, but I know from the newspapers what has been done to some extent, but I do not know the opinions of the members of the Council. I should be inclined, from my own knowledge and experience, to turn it just the other way about. Let them commence at the college, and go to the experimental farm schools to finish off. I think I can give very good reasons for that, though I am not aware of the reasons of the Council or adopting the opposite plan.

793. Are you prepared to give those reasons?—Yes. The reasons are chiefly from my experience with the students. I think they are bound up with other reasons, though I would like to give you them also later. I find first of all that the fresher we get the boys from school the better. If they have been knocking about upon a farm they never turn out half as well as if they have come almost fresh from School, And Have Never Perhaps Worked A Horse In Their Lives. Some of page 10

William E. Ivey Esq. continued, 22nd March 1886.

my best men I have turned out of material of that sort. Some of them have never driven a except perhaps in a buggy. They take to the indoor work much better—their power of doing school work has not been interfered with, as it is almost always when a man runs wild for two or three years, and that is one reason why I prefer them to come to me as early as possible to the central college, where we give the chief portion of their indoor teaching. When they have taken this course at the central college they are then, I think, better able to appreciate the teachings at these special schools than they would be before. Take dairying for instance: they get a thoroughly practical knowledge of dairying. We have a large dairy; we turn out six or seven tons of cheese in a year. We buy the milk; we have a regular factory on a small scale. They have then a thorough knowledge of cheese making to begin with, and not only that, but they have been inside, they have examined milk under the microscope, and know thoroughly well what it is made of. They know all the processes of cheese making, and not only have they had it under the microscope in a biological laboratory, but they have examined it in a chemical laboratory. If this plan were adopted here, when they have a knowledge of milk they could go down to Gippsland or some other dairying district in Victoria. They have a thorough grasp of the whole thing, and after one cheese-making season they would come out with a much better knowledge than if they had been there first and muddled about with milk, and poured it from one thing to another, and knew nothing about what it was made of, or why acidity was generated, for instance, in the curd, and so on. They come to us, and we teach them these things—they would learn very little about it if, on the other hand, they knew nothing about it at first; but knowing these things, they then would get a thorough practical knowledge of dairying at the special school. It strikes me so without a knowledge of the opinions upon the other side, and it would be the same in other things. My idea is to give them a thorough course of agriculture as we do in the central college. Let them turn out there with the knowledge that they have in our college in New Zealand, and then those other schools would be of infinite advantage. Take an irrigation school, or fruit growing, or anything of that sort, we cannot teach it in the central college, and if a man intends to go to fruit growing, let him go to the special school afterwards and finish his studies.

794. Get his knowledge and then apply it?—I think so, decidedly; and another advantage you would have in that case, your staff would not require to be half so numerous as if you go the other way about, because, in the central college, you have all the science teachers; in the farm schools you merely require one expert in each; in the dairy school, one cheese maker; and in the other schools, fruit growing, orchard, or anything else, you want one expert; but as you are doing now (though it seems as if I were criticising), if I understand you aright to-day; you say you would appoint teachers in the farm schools. That seems to me to be doing the work over again; you would save half the money there, and you would save two-thirds of the buildings.

796. According to the climate?—According to the climate.

797. Then you do not approve of having all these things combined at each of these farm schools?—Certainly not. I do not think it would be advisable to have a dairy somewhere in the Wimmera, but rather in Gippsland, for instance.

798. Yes, but suppose we have irrigation?—Then that is different.

799. You teach all in New Zealand?—Yes, we do; but it would be better done if we had schools also.

800. But would not it be better then to have the schools alone?—Without the college at all.

801; Yes, without any scientific knowledge at all?—No, but if you had competent scientific men in each school it would be all right.

802. Could not the men pass from one school to another?—I do not think so.

803. Not the scientific teachers?—I think certainly not, because the whole work would be intimately connected—the practical work with the theoretical work all through the year. I think you would find it altogether impracticable. If you want a teacher, he must take the students right through the course, from year's end to year's end. Peripatetic lecturers are an utter fallacy; by the time the man gets to one place, all he has taught in the other is utterly forgotten.

804. But would not this difficulty crop up in the system you advocate—that these youths would leave the central college with perhaps a good knowledge of the science of farming, and go to these farms where they find only a man with a practical knowledge of farming, having no knowledge of science: do you think the practical man would exercise proper control over those youths; should not there be a man with scientific knowledge in charge of each school?—I do not think it is at all necessary. The schools should be special schools, and the man in charge a specialist. But you understand my idea is that, in the central college, they should be taught practical agriculture as well as science. I would never yield that point. When they went to the farm schools, they should be almost as capable of taking charge of a team of horses as the man in charge. But what I see with equal clearness is this, that if you have a college in a good climate, the system we teach in New Zealand would be useless in the warmer parts of your climate, or, as you say, under irrigation. As in New Zealand, we teach one system to grow turnips, and so on, but in Auckland it is quite a different climate, and there is a totally different system of agriculture; so it is here. You have a totally different system in the ranges here from what you have in the far north, and will have more so in the future.

805. That is exactly our object in having schools in various parts of the colony, so as to provide for different parts and climates, and we have schools, I think I may say, in all the different kinds of climate?—Yes, and those would be very valuable indeed; but I think the idea conveyed page 12

William E. Ivey Esq. continued, 22nd March 1886.

by the question put to me would come to the establishment of six different colleges, and teachers in each.

806. Why we establish schools in different parts of the country is because the people living in those parts of the country want agriculture taught suited to that particular portion?—But that would be very costly, if you had separate staffs for them all.

807. We find in this country that lads, not trained to work when they are young, brought in and trained a year or two in the central college, when they are sent out do not care about working?—That is the very point I make. I say it is essential that they shall do the work at the central college. This is purely a practical programme. I do not for a moment advise that they should go to a school and learn theoretical agriculture, I do not believe that for a moment. They should go out every morning, milk the cows, feed the horses and harness them, and take their turn in the blacksmith's shop, and so on. We divide it into half their time inside and half out on the farm.

808. So that, according to your view, the Agricultural College would be surrounded by a farm?—It ought to be, to have a theoretically perfect college.

809. What extent should that farm be?—Our farm is sufficient for our requirements, but we can get more work out of the land than you could. I should say about a thousand acres.

810. Notwithstanding that there are form schools, where there is a a large area?—Yes, it is a matter of practical knowledge. I know just how many students I can work upon my 600 acres under the plough. I work twelve horses, that takes four students with three horses apiece for the horse work. If you divide the number of students by four, you can very easily see how often a man's turn will come to use the horse teams. That is one thing, and there are all sorts of little practical difficulties that have to be overcome in arranging a thing of this sort, and that is one—how many students will the place keep at legitimate farm work. It is no use making work. You will find if you attempt to put too many students upon a farm, and give them anything that merely makes work, they will not do it; they will say to you straight out, and I admire them for it, We came here to learn farm work, and we do not think this is farm work." They want the horses, and if you give them horses they will work any hours you like. My students work threshing up to half-past eight or half-past nine at night, from breakfast time in 811. Do you make them clean the horses when they are working?—Yes, they go out early in the morning and clean the horses, that is during the week they have the horse teams; there are no men to clean them. And they milk in the same way. 812, In the case of our carrying out a system more like what we contemplate here, that is commencing upon the school farms and finishing up at the central college, do you not think a small farm at the central college would be sufficient to give sufficient labour and experimental work for the last year or two of the student's course?—I think you would have to abolish the farm work almost entirely. You would page 13 have to make it almost wholly a technical school, without

William E. Ivey Esq. continued, 22nd March 1886.

experimental work. You would not want any horses; the students would have merely to go out and superintend the experiments.

813. If you had 120 or 130 acres you would have it ploughed?—That would be very little; about six students would do the work; seven or eight, at any rate, would do it.

814. How many hours a day would you expect the students to work ploughing?—Eight hours.

815. Eight hours outdoor work?—Eight hours one day; next day they are indoors.

816. If the object of the farm was to carry on experiments without any regard to the reproductive character of the farm, would not three or four hours' labour per day be sufficient to keep a student identified with agricultural labour in the finishing up at the central college?—You would fill up his time then with theoretical work indoors?

817. Yes, and give him a shorter time outdoors work, to keep up his practical acquirements. For instance, in some agricultural colleges I visited they never work more than four hours upon the farm; and in the cases such as we propose, a number of men and where there is plenty of work, would not it be possible at the central college to do with less land and fewer hours of work?—It is possible, of course; but the question arises whether it is the best plan or not. You would not be able to give them much horse work; it would be nearly all theoretical work, indeed, connected with the superintendence of experiments; and my experience of students is not that they are very fond of superintending experiments. I am very glad to say they will work very hard if you give them horses; and, in fact, under contract work, what you have to do is to see that they do not work your horses out.

818. In the climate of Australia might not students be content with less than eight hours' labour?—I am sure they will be content with as little as they can get, most of them; but the question is whether or not it would be a better means of turning out good farmers. That is the question really. I do not say it would not, but it is a question.

819. Have you visited the old Model Farm, near the Botanic Gardens?—Yes, I was there a day or two ago.

820. What is your opinion of that as a site for a finishing Central College of Agriculture in connexion with farm schools?—If your ideas are carried out, I think it would be a very good place.

821. Did you observe the buildings there?—I did.

822. Are they suitable for the purpose?—They could be readily adapted, and would be very valuable for the purpose.

823. I suppose the land there would be suitable, if extensive enough? It is not good land, but it could be made useful for experimental purposes.

824. Do you think the buildings are too large for the purpose?—That is rather a good fault.

825. Your ouly objection to the site would be the limited extent of land?—That is the thing. If I wanted an ideal school after my own page 14

William E. Ivey Esq. continued, 22nd March 1886.

idea, that is the objection I should raise to it; but the buildings are very valuable for the purpose, no doubt. They would not want a great deal of modification and there they are, and it is difficult to get the money for buildings.

826. What did your buildings cost in New Zealand?—They cost over £20,000 without the furnishing.

827. Was that provided out of the 100,000 acres of land?—Yes; at the same time the buildings need not cost, for a central college, so much as that. They are unnecessarily good.

828. In your opinion do not yon think the boys who have had practical teaching at the farm school would not be able to learn the scientific part better after they have had that practical teaching?—Decidedly not. I take the exactly opposite view. The worst men I have had are men that have been upon farms and stations, and are as dense and thick in the head as they can possibly be, simply from their haying been away from schooling and riding about two or three years. It spoils them entirely.

829. You think their knowledge makes them stupid?—No, they have no knowledge; they know how to ride a horse and draft a few sheep, and nothing more.

830. There is this difference in our case, that the students coming from our school farms would not be, in any respect, like young men from stations and ordinary farms; they would have been under instruction the whole time upon those school farms; they would be under practical farmers, and receiving instruction from an agricultural chemist, an English teacher, and whatever other teaching is necessary to fill in the first portion of their course to be finished at the central college, so they would not be at all unfitted for receiving the finishing teaching?—I understand that; they would be quite different cases; but you must recollect that under my system the cost would be less than half what the other would cost, and would give them the same instruction; and they should come out, I do not say better men, because that is a matter of opinion, but I think they would be as good, and I think the annual expense would not be one half. You would want several agricultural chemists and teachers—almost one to every school; and yet, on the other hand, with a central institution one man would do the whole of the work.

831. There is one reason why we thought of having different schools spread all over the colony; for instance, we have one at Dookie North; it is a different climate, different soil; different farming is required from what would be in the colder places. And then again further in the north, perhaps up Horsham way, they have a different thing still?—I quite think that.

832. And if you want the men to learn everything properly, you must send your students from one school to another until they learn the whole thing. What do you think of that?—I think it is a very good idea. A man has to pass his examinations in theoretical and practical agriculture at the head college; why could he then not go to Dookíe where there is no irrigation, or to another school where there is irrigation, page 15 and stop three or four months there, and then to Gippsland

William E. Ivey Esq. continued, 22nd March 1886.

to see dairying for three or four months, and he would, having his theoretical knowledge of agriculture, be able in those short periods of time to grasp the different styles of farming that are carried out in those farm schools or farms.

833. As regards the land endowment, the proportion sold, what did it fetch, do you recollect?—I think we sold about 40,000 acres at £2.

834. And the portion you did not sell what rents may you get for it?—I think the rent is about £750 a year; it is mountain land in the west.

835. Have you had any money grants from the State?—No, none whatever.

936. Relied solely upon the land endowment?—Yes.

937. Who appoints the board that you have?—They were appointed in the first instance by the Government, I believe the Provincial Council and the Government, but now they are elected by the University

938. Who appoints the farm examiners?—The board; there is a subcommittee, an agricultural sub-committee—there is the Canterbury College Board of Governors—and then we have a certain number on different committees.

839. Why does not the college fill better?—It may be that we have too much room for the wants of the colony, but I think it is not very

840. Do you think the charges are high?—At present they are; no

841. We have fixed a much lower scale for our farm school?—Yes, you will have to; and another reason I think is that a great many possible students do not like the farm work. If our institution were like the English institution, where students could ride about and look on at the farming, we should fill up very quickly; but I am afraid I have rather a bad name among many of the young people down there; they have to fill dung carts and so on, and I have absolutely had letters front parents objecting that to learn agriculture it is not necessary to fill dung carts. I'say I think it is, and as long as I am there they would have to do it, and if they stop that, they lose me. I do not mind any amount of complaints upon that ground, because I know I am perfectly right about it. If a man cannot fill dung carts and do all sorts of work upon the farm, he will not make a good farmer.

842. Does the farm leave a profit?—Yes.

843. How much?—About £600 a year. It pays a good rent. Your see I am under drawbacks as to labour. Those three or four men I have are paid, and they superintend the students' labour; and then I pay students by contract, so my labour bill is bigger than it should be; and then I have to make work to a slight extent, but taking it altogether we have a difference of about £600 a year.

845. Your land is much better than ours?—Not a bit, but the climate is better.

845. Is that surplus after paying the professors?—No, that is the farm, not the teaching staff.

847. How much is the garden and orchard out of that?—There is, exclusive of garden and orchard, 600 acres under the

848. Have you much garden and orchard?—Two or three acres.

849. And a portion under permanent grasses?—It is about 114 acres under grasses. The produce last year was 11,400 bushels of grain; the wheat averaged 44 ½ bushels per acre; that is 1885. This year it is not so big. I have not the returns for this year. That information is all given in the report with the prospectus. At the time the report was written there were 1,463 sheep upon the farm.

850. Have you made any experiments with grasses?—Yes, with a few of the English grasses, but I have not been able to carry them out as well as I should like.

851. Are there no results you can submit to us?—No.

852. Of course that is a necessary and very important point to see what grasses are best suited to our soil and climate?—Yes, undoubtedly it is a most important subject. There is one difficulty I see you may find crop up, that is getting the proper kind of students for your colleges. Of course we all know the opinion of the ordinary farmer as to colleges; they are the same here as everywhere else. There will be a difficulty in getting them to see the advantages of high education. It is so with us to some extent; and I am strongly of opinion, and I ventilated the matter down there with my own board (they not being a Government body), that you should connect this technical education, these technical schools with the State schools in some way, that is, draft a certain number of State school boys into these schools. I am very certain in my own mind you want to diffuse an agricultural education amongst the masses of the farmers. You know a youth of sixteen or seventeen is of very considerable use to the farmer, and you have to induce that man, who is generally of no education himself, and therefore does not value the higher education, not only to part with that youth's services, for he can milk the cows and do other things, but after he leaves the State school you expect him to part with the youth and send him to college, and to pay £50 a year for him; and that goes against the grain with those farmers and selectors. At the same time that is the class of youth you want in the schools. I am sure all men in the colony that know the circumstances of the case would agree with me, or nearly all, that that is to a great extent the class of man we want in the schools. I think that, if it could be worked, the Government should be induced to offer in connexion with these schools a certain number of scholarships to be gained at the State schools. Say that there is a scholarship open to the boys who pass best in certain subjects at those schools. Whether the farm schools be made preparatory to the other, or vice versâ, I am very certain, from my experience in New Zealand, that unless that is done the agricultural schools will not be the success they should be. That is, first of all, you will not get the class of men you want; and there is another point I know the page 17 difficulties you have to deal with in the schools. You

William E. Ivey Esq. continued, 22nd March 1886.

may get, say, sons of well-to-do people likely to kick a little at the work; they do not care. I have had it said to me, "Oh, I am perfectly independent of this place," and so they are; and they are not so much under control, perhaps, as far as the work goes, as boys who get scholarships would be, as their parents find them in pocket money. My idea of those places is essentially to make cockatoos; and the youths I describe will not understand that. If I say you came here to be made into a cockatoo, they do not like it; but still that is essentially what we want; and we want cockatoos above the common cockatoo. Of course we want small farmers, but good farmers; and unless something of that sort is done to give a very considerable leaven at any rate to the students in the schools, they will not be the success they ought to be. A thing of that sort might be very easily done.

853. But one of the principal difficulties you raised was the high amount that had to be paid, £50 a year; if that were considerably reduced?—That would not have the effect; it is not only the £50 or £30 a year they have to pay, but there is the loss of the boy's services.

854. Do you think you could give us any hints that would help to bring in the class of students you refer to?—I should put it that two-thirds of the students who are educated at these colleges should be admitted from the State schools, and the other third should be left for farmers'-sons and others, who might wish to be admitted; that is, I think, if you are going to improve the general agriculture of Victoria, and that is what you want. I, of course, am well acquainted with this matter, I know what it is to have dilettante people ou a farm. I have to get the work done, and if I send out a certain man with a team of horses I know they ought to get so many acres ploughed, but you know what the class of man I have described is; if it gets very hot, he gets under the hedge and smokes, and the team comes in, having ploughed half an acre perhaps. If the man in charge has these scholarships' youths, they have to work, I do not say too hard, but they must work.

855. And by giving them so much an acre they have to work?—Yes.

856. And those who have plenty of money do not care?—Just so. On the other hand, the other men will earn four or five shillings a day every time they go out with the horses, and the other men do not earn sixpence; they do not care—"My father gives me a five-pound note." Some of the parents have asked me, "How much shall I give him." I say give him nothing; let him have just what he earns, and that is just what they should get.

857. Have you no way of dealing with the men who earn nothing?—If I can catch them I put them to weeding the front road, but then my difficulty is to catch them.

858. Still I do not think a wealthy man would send his son to the school unless he wanted him to learn?—I have had lots sent to me just to get them out of the road, and I have got into very bad odour, even here page 18

William E. Ivey Esq. continued, 22nd March 1886.

in Melbourne, about it. I had a very distinguished visitor two or three weeks before I came away, and Le was interested in farming, and saying he had a lot of farm lands upon his hands. How was it that ho could not work it? I said "You spend too much upon labour." At the moment one of the students happened to pass. He had been with me about eighteen months. I said, "Here is a youngster, come and speak to him"; and I said, "That youngster all the winter has been working the American gang plough, double furrow, twelve-inch furrows, driving five horses by himself. Now have you got a man in England that will do that?" He said he did not think he had. I said, "That boy has been here eighteen months—ask him how old he is." "How old are you? " "Seventeen." "What depth do you plough?" "Nine inches." "How much a day? " "Two and a quarter acres." "Do you always plough nine inches? " "Not always." "How much do you do then? " "Three and a quarter acres." Now I say there is not a farm hand in England that would do it, and my visitor looked rather astonished.

859. Are there any other points that occur to your mind as to the difficulties?—There are all sorts of little difficulties in organization, and so on.

860. I think you have altered your system or labour from what it was when I visited your college some years ago. I think your system then was to have a certain number of hours compulsory labour, then any work done apart from those hours was paid for?—No, I never had that. The first year I paid them so much an hour, but I found that the farm went back, so then I instituted contract work all through. Of course that gave a great deal more trouble in measuring up, but that is done in a great measure by the land survey classes. I find that hour work would never work at all. It was all "government stroke." It was absolutely necessary to give them their contract.

861. We are also making inquiry as to the vegetable products suited to the colony, both with and without irrigation; have you thought over that subject?—I have thought over it, but I do not know that I could give you very much information about products other than those grown in temperate climates. You have other experts who know much more than I do about olives and vines and so on. I have not the slightest doubt about the great value of introducing those crops, but I have not the practical knowledge that I have of the other crops grown. Sly idea certainly is that what you want to introduce is a much better system of farming than you have. I think you would find wheat growing would not be such a bad speculation if carried on properly; because I think in a very few years you will have to import wheat if you do no mind in Victoria. Of course there is a surplus now, but you are using seven million bushels now with the seed, and you grow that upon about a million acres. If you are growing a million acres of wheat in a colony like this, a very few years will see a diminution in the acreage.

862. Stripping it?—Stripping the land. We are all doing it; of course it is not peculiar to Victoria or South Australia or anywhere else, The whole world is stripping the wheat lands at present. What we page 19 want is to introduce a better system of agriculture altogether

William E. Ivey Esq. continued, 22nd March 1886.

—a system of mixed farming, growing beep, though sheep are very low just now; but I think it might be done so as to produce your wheat upon a smaller acreage—get better crops and grow cheaper for a less price per bushel. I could laud the wheat from our farm in London—I reckoned it up, at a high freight, 25s., a freight I do not suppose you ever pay here, and it has been 9s. 6d. in parts of New Zealand—I can laud my wheat off that farm at about 3s. 5d. in London.

863. At 25s. freight?—Yes; that is a very important matter. Then again, here you do not seem to get on with your frozen mutton as we do, and I cannot at all make out why. I know the sheep are not the quality ours are, but why should not they be?

864. Is not that explained by the fact that your sheep are larger framed than ours?—Yes; but why should they be; why are not your lands improved—is that not possible; and if a better class of farming is carried out you would get better sheep—get crossbred sheep as we do. There is no reason why it should not be.

865. The home consumers perhaps do not know the difference in value?—They will not have it, I believe, and that is the reason I expect why your mutton is lower in price. Of course we have our turnip crop, and that gives us winter feed, but in Victoria I do not think winter is when you are short of feed. Of course what I am about to say may be impracticable—it is merely the idea that strikes me—but why cannot you grow food for summer as we do for winter? Our turnip crop costs us a good deal, but for instance, why could not a crop be grown and made into ensilage for summer use. It is only a short time in summer when you are short of feed; you do not want a great deal.

866. There is the labour question?—I know that, but it is not much that is wanted.

867. What crop have you in your mind?—Lots of crops could be used, but sorghum or maize would probably be the best, but our turnip crop costs a great deal of money, and yet if we get 2d. a pound for mutton we get on swimmingly; that is 4½d. a pound in London, but we are getting 5d. and 5½d. Now it seems to me that if you carry on two or three dry months in the year with ensilage you could get on better, and then the rest of the year you might have your winter feed for sheep, and might be able to carry a very much larger number of stock than you do—and stock of good quality.

868. In the cooler portions of Victoria it struck me as being strange that the turnip crop was never cultivated?—It ought to be cultivated.

869. What is the rainfall of Christchurch?—About 25 inches.

870. I think we have districts with an average rainfall like that, and we never seem to cultivate that crop?—I think it might be made a subject of experiment. That is where the value of these experimental farms comes in. If you had one in that part of the country to experiment with turnips, it would be useful, but it would be useless in the dryer parts of Victoria. In those school farms you would have to carry on a different system of agriculture altogether. I know the difficulty— page 20

William E. Ivey Esq. continued, 22nd March 1886.

it is the labour difficulty; but in New Zealand we have to grow turnips, and we make hay. That is gone into in that pamphlet, and we cart the hay to the sheep and eat off the turnips, and yet we make a profit on 2d. a pound; but there is not much of your country that would grow turnips.

871. But a great deal of our country would grow lucerne?—Yes, that is an exceedingly useful crop if it is not grazed too hard; you want small paddocks, and shift the sheep or cattle from one to the other so as not to destroy the plant, and it is a most excellent plant for en silage. That is where the Council of Agriculture could be of very great use to Victoria, to carry out a series of experiments upon such matters as those. Try ensilage, for instance.

872. For instance, we can easily make one of those school farms without having all those great buildings, for scientific teaching; you can teach them that at some of the others?—That is my idea. I did put down some figures to see what they would cost, but it was very small.

873. I understand you to say that you try no experiments upon your farm?—We try none upon a small scale, only as part of the general farm practice.

874. You have tried English grasses?—Yes.

875. And lucerne?—Yes, it is no use with us, but all these reports in the pamphlet are experiments; there is the turnip crop, for instance.

876. Is your climate quite moist enough for the turnip crop?—No, it is too dry; for instance, this year there is hardly any one up our way has turnips, but I had the advantage of a water drill, and I managed to get turnips.

877. Does the turnip fly trouble you at all?—Yes, a good deal; we lose the whole crop sometimes.

878. Do you hand hoe your turnips?—No, we horse how them.

879. Does dairying produce pay with you?—Yes, this year cheese is about 5 ½d., and that is always profitable, but last year it was not so.

880. Are there many cheese factories now in New Zealand?—I sup pose about eight or ten or a dozen; they supply Melbourne.

881. Are they successful as a rule?—Some of them are very successful, and some are not so.

882. That must be bad management?—Yes, I think so, and bad position and unsuitable climate; those are the three things that are dead against dairying. On the South Island they seem all to have been a success, all but one at any rate that I know of. Much cheese is shipped for Melbourne.

883. Are there any butter factories on the co-operative principle?—No, not to any great "extent; there is not the demand for butter in New Zealand, and it is not so easily transported as cheese; it has not paid so well as cheese.

884. Have you used the centrifugal cream separator?—Yes.

885. Upon your farm?—Yes, I have one—not Laval's.

886. Are there any of the Laval?—Yes, a good few.

887. Are they giving satisfaction?—Yes, they work very well.

889. Is it too early yet for you to express an opinion upon it?—Yes.

890. In reference to the students that you have, within your knowledge do they generally belong to farmers' sons or tradespeople's sons?—All sorts; we have a mixture, tradespeople, farmers, squattera, and professional men's sons, and so on; but I may say there are none who have passed but what have become farmers.

891. They have been farmers once?—No, they are all now farmers. I was looking at the evidence given by Mr. Cureton; he said a great many from the American colleges entered the law and all sorts of things, and it is stated that that is on account of what they are taught, but, so far as we are concerned, they are all farmers who have gone through the college and passed. Of course some men go there for twelve months and do not like it, and they start something else; but I do not recognise those at all.

892. Have the youths who have passed through your hands proved themselves exceptionally useful as farmers?—I think so; several of them are men in charge of very large places. I would trust them with anything. The only thing they are not up in is buying and selling stock, but they have a fair knowledge of book-keeping, a fair know ledge of land surveying, sufficient at any rate, and it is not any use to tell them what work is worth, because they have had to do it, and they know all the dodges.

893. You find those youths, when they leave your hands, readily find occupation?—Pretty fair; at present there is not a great deal of occupation for anybody connected with agriculture in New Zealand, but they have done very fairly indeed; in fact, as far as I know, they are all in occupation, some upon their own farms, and some employed by others.

894. Have you any knowledge at all of any that intend to follow farming largely, either by the assistance of their parents, or on their own means?—Some are managing large places, two or three.

895. I mean are they seeming to you to carry on a large system of farming as well as a scientific system?—Yes, no doubt some of them are. We have some very large farms in New Zealand, and I know two or three at any rate who are upon those large farms.

896. Have you had any demand from young men—men almost too old to go to school again—who would like to come for six months or so upon the farm?—Yes, some demand, but we cannot take them into the college above 21, and there is a difficulty with us because there is no accommodation in the neighbourhood. If they live outside they are allowed to come and attend lectures, and take part in the farm work and so on, but we are better without them really, but it is not practical men who come to us at that age; it is men who have failed at other things who come.

897. By Mr. Dow.—There are here some men, sons of farmers, who intend to follow farming, and have not had an education of this sort, who would probably want to attend one of the school farms for say six page 22

William E. Ivey Esq. continued, 22nd March 1886.

months—have you had any experience of that?—We have had some, but the difficulty is in getting accommodation for them boarding outside, and we will not admit them inside—1 think properly. It does not do to mix up boys of fifteen and seventeen with men of thirty.

898. I gather from that that your college is isolated?—There is a village and a railway station.

899. Close to the railway station?—Yes, the railway station is upon the farm.

900. It is not very far from Christchurch, is it?—Fourteen miles.

901. You get, I presume, visiting lecturers?—Only one, a veterinary surgeon, but I would not have more at any price. They are no use. They live in the town, and they look upon the college as a nuisance. If you want a man to be of use, he must be a part of the college, and have his heart in it, and know every field.

902. But you would require so many?—According to my idea you do not—you want one man for each subject, and a good man.

903. But there are so many sorts?—No.

904. Veterinary science, for instance, you want a man, and you take him all his time?—That is the only difficulty we have, and we have not this man all his time, but the others we have all their time. You must remember there is a good deal of discipline to be carried out as well as teaching, and you must have the masters to carry out the discipline. Lights must be out at a certain time, and so on, and there must be somebody to see that those things are carried out. It will not do to have students out at all hours and lights burning, and so on.

905. Do you have any agreement with them that they shall go on with the course?—No, you cannot do that. There is an agreement that they shall conform to discipline and rules.

906. Does any other observation occur to you to make to us upon any subject that should be useful to us?—No, I do not know of anything.

907. If anything else occurs to you, we shall be very glad indeed if you will write to us upon it?—Yes, I shall be very glad to be of any assistance to you, having always a certain amount of affection for Victoria. Of course, my ideas are evidently a little different from those of some members of the Commission. In connexion with that, may I be allowed to say, not knowing much of what you have done, that I saw you had accepted tenders for the Dookie schools; but I would stop those buildings if you have any idea of carrying out my ideas. I would put the whole of that money towards carrying out a central college. I do not know whether I ought to express such an opinion, but 1 think there is nothing more objectionable than doing things in a hurry without a cut-and-dried scheme. You remember what a mess Dookie was made of before. You remember a lot of money was spent upon building, and a lot of youngsters were pitchforked in there, and they got no teaching, and they got the place a bad name. I have expressed my opinion as to what is a better plan, and if my ideas would hold water, or meet the ideas of the Commission generally, the bulk of the money would be page 23 better spent upon a central college than at Dookie. I do

William E. Ivey Esq. continued, 22nd March 1886.

not think you want half the expense at Dookie that you are committing yourselves to. About the arrangement of the buildings there, I have not seen the plans, but in the paper since I came over I saw they were to consist of a central hall for lecture purposes, a dining-room, and dormitories for forty students. That means that there are to be certain lecturers, I suppose; but you have made no provision for those youngsters after they have done their day's work. There are forty students and no provision. I would not like to take charge of that place. In six weeks they would want to know what they are to do, and that would be a very difficult position for the manager; and you would have very considerable difficulty in finding work for forty men upon a farm, unless you put them to clearing land; their parents would complain, and it is a difficult matter. They want to go farming and ploughing—that is the height of their ambition, and they will do as much as you like at that. I speak from experience with students for the last eight years. I know exactly the objections they will have to that kind of work, and they want farm work; but directly you put them to work that they think is made work—and they are sharp enough, and they will ask are they going to get any profit out of that work—they will not do it, and they get into bad habits.

908. What provision do you refer to in the way of rooms—do you mean amusements and so on?—No, I mean some rooms besides dormitories—a room to assemble in, for instance; and there is no provision for teachers. If you send forty men out there without teachers, in three months they will all be wild—I know what it is. You need to be very careful in starting a thing of that sort to start it properly, and not get a bad name, because those youngsters are Australians, and they know when they are being properly treated. Even at our own place we are short of one thing—that is, the time of the blacksmith and carpenter, and you would not believe the grumbling I have to put up with because I have not money to get the blacksmith to come oftener. You would not believe the grumbling that there is that they do not get more instruction in that work.

909. Our difficulty is one of money?—I know that.

910. Would you advise us to wait five or six years before starting a college, or start Dookie with as good a provision as the means will allow?—Then you must start a small place first; but I understood this was to be merely a small farm in connexion with an agricultural college?

911. Our idea was that it might be some time before we got a central college, and we might have to go on with the place for the present and do as well as we can?—That explains the matter at once. Then you would shift your staff from there to the central college when you get one.

912. Exactly?—And build up your staff at Dookie.

913. Yes?—That is quite a different thing. There is another suggestion I would make to the council, and that is most decidedly I would add forestry to the agricultural teaching. I strongly advocate that for two page 24

William E. Ivey Esq. continued, 22nd March 1886.

reasons—in the interests of agriculture and in the interests of the colony too. First of all, in teaching forestry, your science teaching is just the same as in any other branch of agriculture. And, secondly, I should advise the council to get hold of all the State forests for the endowment for a forest school. There is revenue from them that would start a forest school and the renovation and restoration of your forests as well; and I think it is proper that the whole of the forests should come under the Council of Education. I know what the forests are, and I know every inch of them, and I know what a trouble there has been in trying to do anything with them, and the sooner they are removed from the present control the better. But you can teach forestry and conserve the forests. Those are two good things; and beside that you get a revenue from it, and that is what you want. I do not know what revenue you get from your 150,000 acres, but I know when I was here there was very little land worth anything left in the hands of the Government; but your 150,000 acres are not worth as much as our 100,000 in New Zealand.

914. Would you make the schools of forestry separate from any other?—Undoubtedly not. What I would do would be to give education at the central college in forestry and agriculture. All you want to establish is one or two or three forest schools in the same way as you have for agriculture farm schools, merely for planting—send so many out into the forest to plant, and so on. It is as simple as possible.

915. Just the same as an agricultural farm and a dairy farm could he worked together?—Just so. I do not see any difficulties in it that are insurmountable. I know it would make the council of much more value to the colony than it is at present, and would give them more money to work upon, and would pay over and over again in the improvement of the forests. I may say there was a great deal of trouble in organizing the college in New Zealand, because there is no college of the same sort anywhere else. We had to strike out an entirely new line for ourselves. Of course, I remember the Cirencester College in England, and I know the weak points there, and I knew what to avoid in this one. Of course, I could make the New Zealand College a great deal better if I had more money. You have an advantage in this way, that we are a local institution and you have the whole colony to work on.

916. What is your annual revenue altogether?—Including sales from the farm—the gross revenue do you mean?

917. Take the revenue from the land and investments first and the farm separately?—It is rather difficult to say. I should have to go through the items minutely to get at the cost I should say about £3,000. I could write down the items with a little consideration.

918. If your pupils pay £50 or £60 a year, are you teaching them at a loss, or are they paying their own cost?—We are certainly teaching at a loss now. At £45 a year we taught at a loss, because £45 merely covered the cost of their board—in fact, it did not quite cover it. Then we have to pay several other items that you would not; for instance, we pay the fares by steamboat of students from other parts of New Zealand, for instance, from Auckland to Lyttleton, and that is an item page 25 of about £200 or £300 a year, and two or three other things

William E. Ivey Esq. continued, 22nd March 1886.

come under the cost of the students as well as the actual cost of tuition.

919. If these figures are private, we will not ask them?—I can do better than that for you. I think I can make an estimate of what it would cost you.

920. Thank you, that would suit us equally well?—I shall be glad to give that.

921. You do not think that the main hall at Dookie would be sufficient for the students to use of an evening?—No, that would be a pandemonium.

922. How many rooms would be required?—I do not know. Have you separate bedrooms.

923. Yes?—Would you want as many as forty; could you not turn some of them into day rooms?

924. Some of the bedrooms are very small?—They will want a place, if they want to do any work, where they could go by themselves, two or three of them at any rate. I know what it is myself, that, if you have twenty or thirty men in one room, there is no possibility of doing any work.

925. Some may want to do bookkeeping, and so on?—Yes, and beside that they have an examination every Saturday, and they want to work up their notes, and then to make their botanical collections, and so on. Then you want a room where two or three men of like temperament can get together, but if they have the whole twenty or thirty nothing whatever can be done. The difficulty I should think with forty up there would be to find them farm work. I do not know the acreage that is now cleared.

926. Is it not very necessary to learn the art of grubbing trees?—I am afraid it would not be done. They would simply stand there with their tools used for grubbing trees, and be like the nigger—so very fond of them that they would lie down beside them.

927. The total area is 5,000 acres—430 acres have been grubbed and cleared; 250 acres have been broken up and are under the plough?—You will find that the foundation of a whole farm of this sort will be the number of horses you can employ. Of course, a certain number can be employed fencing, and so on.