Premier Addressed a Large and Enthusiastic Meeting

of the Natives, which lasted from 9 p.m. till 1 a.m. the next day.

Hapi was the first speaker. He said,—This is the dividing line between the Urewera Tribe and the Ngatihahungunu Tribe. All the people who are here at present are anxious to discuss certain matters with you, our parent, the head of the Government, and we fervently hope that the requests we make in connection therewith will be given effect to. The first subject we wish to bring before you is in regard to the territorial or tribal boundary. The next is in respect to the reserves in these parts affecting Waikaremoana. There is some land belonging to us which is included in that belonging to the Government.

Hori Whererangi said,—Welcome the Premier to this place! You have an opportunity now of seeing the people who reside here. This place marks the dividing-line between the Ngatihahungunu and Tuhoe Tribes. We are a people who are not thoroughly acquainted with the law, and I am glad to see you have endured danger and physical hardship in coming here to see us. We are not living at ease in this place. We do not know how we stand. Therefore we welcome you and your European friends. We hear that the object of your visit is to arrange for the sale to the Government of all Native surplus lands. You will have seen, on your journey, that we occupy most of our land that will admit of occupation. However, we will learn from you yourself, when you speak, the object of your visit.

Te Kohai said,—Welcome, my parent, Tupaea, that you may see your people who are living here! You will understand all about the reserves between the Ngatihahungunu and Tuhoe. That is all I have to say to you. Welcome, Mr. Carroll, welcome, my son! You were sent to Parliament to fulfil a mission on behalf of the Native tribes, with the object of seeing their rights adjusted and grievances remedied in respect to their blocks of forest land. Whatever may have been done elsewhere, no relief has reached us; but I still have hopes in you, and place confidence in you. Although you occupy a different position to that which you did formerly, I still look to you to redress the grievances of the Native people. I may receive salvation, or I may not. We did not elect you as a Minister—neither ourselves nor the other tribes—though we trust good may come of it. That is all for you. Welcome, my loving friend, the Premier!—loving when you are disposed to be so. I am glad you have come; my heart rejoices, for it gives you an opportunity of seeing our position here, and the grievances we labour under. You will also find out whether those grievances are the fault of ourselves or some one else. It is only since I came under your wing and became your child that I knew what it was to suffer. That is all.

Mihaere said,—Welcome, the Premier! Welcome, Mr. Carroll! It was very thoughtful of you to tread over the territory of the Tuhoe. This is not a country frequently visited by people. It is a strange country. It is isolated, and I give you credit for undertaking the journey. I greet you for appearing here in our midst. You have travelled through the territory of the Tuhoe, and this is the end of that territory. We are the people residing at this end. I cannot, on the present occasion, go into my grievances in detail, but to-morrow I will have them ready. I shall, therefore, confine myself at the present time to welcoming you, and offering you my greetings. I shall be quite satisfied to hear from you the reasons for your visit, and what thoughts may be in your breast affecting this part of the country and the people living therein. Oh, my friend, let me page 92 welcome you to day. You behold a strange people, who are strangers to European laws and ways. You say that if certain laws are followed out it will lead to the salvation of the people. I have not yet seen that such will be the case. I do not know—I am ignorant. No outside knowledge has been imparted to me. I am living now as I did, according to the customs and usages of my ancestors. I fear that my ignorance will not facilitate me in grasping any counsel that you may give which will lead to our improvement. That is all.

Mei te Manuka said,—Welcome the Premier and Mr. Carroll! You come here in two forms; let me understand you: you are Maori and European together. I am unacquainted with the many ways of the world, and it is your duty to make things clear to me. If you have anything to say to me in regard to our old traditional matters, well and good; if you bring with you European innovations, then I do not understand them. However, I am quite willing to learn, quite willing to benefit by any suggestion that will improve my condition and increase my knowledge. I am quite willing to receive any information from you in connection with your travels and journey over this rough country. When you speak I shall be able to dissect your speech, and find out that which is trickery and that which is good. Teach! I can understand the difference between cold and warmth.

Te Wao said,—Welcome, Mr. Carroll! Welcome, Tupaea! Bring us our parent; lead him over our territory. If you have thought of the tribe of Tuhoe, it is well. That is all I have to say to the Maori members of the troup. Welcome the Premier! Come and see your poor people. Come and look through the Tuhoe country. If you have come to save, come; if you have come to kill us, come. You are the head of the European people; you are the Government. All power is vested in you. All knowledge of matters in connection with land, and all grievances, are centred in your hands. (Song.)

Hapi again addressed the Premier, and said,—We are very glad at your visit. None of us can take offence for your having come through our country. You have come in open daylight. You have come through boldly, and met our people all through. Others have crept through dark places—that is what has been reprehensible. Now, let me give you both a hearty welcome for your condescending to come and see us as you have done.

The chiefs then addressed Tupaea, the young chief sent by Kereru to accompany the Premier. He also thanked them for their kind welcome. Mr. Carroll also returned their greetings.

The Premier on rising said,—Men, women, and children of the Native race, I offer you friendly greetings, and thank you heartily for the kind welcome you have given me here to-day. If I had wanted evidence of your goodwill you have given it, and given it so completely that all doubts that may have been in my mind, and in the minds of those who are with me, have been removed. I have listened to the several speakers, and the words used have been those of love, kindness, and welcome. You have pointed out that you are located on the Tuhoe boundary. I did not come to you and from you to Tuhoe. I went to the Tuhoe first and came through the Tuhoe country to see you. We came through boldly, and without fear, knowing we were with friends in the Tuhoe country, and were coming to friends here. Before coming here I saw the representatives of the Tuhoe at different places—at Ruatoki first—and the welcome I received from them was of the same kind-and cordial character as the welcome you have given me here to night. Kereru, whose name I know is revered and respected by all of you, is my friend. At the conclusion of the address at Ruatoki he presented to me the sceptre, the taiaha of the tribe; and he also went further, because he offered to come with me on this my perilous journey, but age troubles him, and the infirmities which come therewith, and I would not take advantage of his kindness to undertake such a journey. He, however, did what one friend who loves another would do, he sent with me here, as a guide to see me through and bring me here safely, his relative Tupaea, one whom you respect; and I thank you for the welcome you have given him as well as for the welcome you have given the whole party. Kereru could not have put my colleague and myself in better hands. A better friend it would be impossible to meet, and no one could have done more than he has to bring us here safely. The very fact of his being with the party would, I am sure, be a safeguard so far as you are concerned—in fact it would be the mouthpiece of Tuhoe. He is the connecting link between the two. I have on my journey seen every tribe. At Ruatoki, Galatea, Te Whaiti, Te Mimi, and Ruatahuna; and the same welcome, the same kindness has been accorded and shown to the party and myself on every occasion. As we have journeyed on our way every assistance has been rendered to us, and that assistance we wanted, for it is a perilous journey, and it was over one of the roughest countries I have ever had the experience of travelling through. After travelling yesterday from Te Mimi to the lake, I assure you we all slept soundly last night; we were very tired indeed. Well, our guide and friend, Tupaea, brought us safe to the lake, but it rested with our gallant captain and the crew of the canoe to bring us across the dividing boundary and bring us safe to you this evening. Your lake is well named Waikare Moana. They are very troubled waters, and I think every one of our party will vouch and take my word for it that the waters of the lake to-day were very wet. It was rather suggestive to me when I found my old friends Biddle and Collier here, who are travelling page 93 with us, taking off their boots. I said to myself it is a case of swim, but I thought the best thing to do was to keep my boots on and rely on the captain and crew. I watched very carefully what the captain was doing, and I knew full well he knew the danger, and that we were in safe hands. Hence I was satisfied we should reach the shore safely and well. We had very little food on the other side; there were no pigeons to be had, and it became a question as to which of two evils to face—the water or starvation—so we trusted to the canoe, and the captain and the crew who were with it. I must not forget to mention the young man who came from Te Mimi, who assisted the men in the canoe, and who came ahead to let you know of our arrival. Therefore, we may, I trust, presume that the perils of the journey are now at an end. There was great responsibility on the captain and crew of that canoe to-day, because there would have been a change of Government if we had not arrived safe on the shores of the lake. As it is, I believe I can say, without being at all egotistical, I am the first Prime Minister to travel that perilous journey; and it is not saying too much when I say I think I shall be the last for a good many years to come. You have asked the question,—and you are quite right in so doing,—now that I have passed all these perils and am safe here, what have I come for? You have said, "If you come for our good, welcome; if you come for our evil, welcome; we are glad to see you." Well, I will tell you honestly, as one man speaking to another, colour makes no distinction. We all belong to the Great Master who looks down upon us and loves us all, and I say I came here for your good, and not for evil. I would not have come this distance to do you evil. Just ask yourselves the question—you have done me no harm; you have not injured the Government; you have done no harm to any one; why then should I desire to come here and meet you to do you an injury? You have said that you are troubled; that you are a people living here isolated; that you do not know what is going on around you; and that you are ignorant of what is going on in other parts of the colony; and when you speak these words to me, you speak the truth. I feel that to be the case. You are isolated; you are living, as you say, not knowing the Government, or the reason for your isolated condition. You say, "Let us know the law; let us know what is going on; what is for our good." That is why I am here. I am here to let you know what is for your good. You have said to-night that you have been informed that I have been going round to see the Natives in order to get them to sell their surplus land to the Government. That statement is incorrect. You have told me that you have no surplus land, and that what land you have you are occupying and using. If you are doing so, that is all the Government desire. In doing that, you are doing good to yourselves and the colony. That is what the pakehas are doing, from one end of the colony to the other, and I speak for both races when I say that is what the pakehas desire, and they have said so by passing laws to that effect. The land is there so that it may produce and the people may live—no matter to what race or colour they belong. There is sufficient land in New Zealand for both races, and it is my desire and the desire of the Government that both races may live in love and friendship side by side. It is to promote that object, and with a view of seeing that the evils of the old times—disturbances with the pakehas—are not repeated; to see that there is an end to this for all time; to know what your feelings and desires are; and to see how best to assist you and promote friendship between both races, that I have undertaken this journey. I shall, therefore, ask you to be true to yourselves, speak your minds, and speak openly. You have said to-night that I am your parent and the head of the Government. Well, I ask you as a parent, and as head of the Government, to speak your minds openly to me, that I may know your troubles, if you have any, so that I may be able to help you. If you have no troubles you will not need my help. The result of my experience on this journey is that I find on one side the Native race think they are labouring under a grievance because the pakehas have not paid them that attention which their case demanded, and on the other hand the pakehas say that the Natives are not taking up a position of progress. Between the two there has been a misunderstanding, and you have been misjudged. I can speak from personal experience, and will be able, with the assistance of my colleagues, to remove the doubts that have been on your minds. I have considered your position. You could not and have not been able to go down to Wellington and see me or the Government and explain for yourselves the position in which you are placed. Those who have represented you have done their best. I will not say too much, because I do not desire to flatter, but will say of my colleague, Mr. Carroll, that when he represented the Native race he did his best to bring about friendship and peace between the two races. You have mentioned to-night that his position has changed, that he was formerly the representative of the Native race and now represents a European constituency, and that he is now a Minister in the Cabinet, representing the Native race. I think this will convince you that he possesses the confidence of the Native race, because they returned him to represent them twice, and that he possesses the confidence of the pakehas is conclusive, because they have now returned him to represent them. His position, therefore, is more powerful for your good to-day than ever it was before. I have told you that the Government desires to help you. You said to-night there were two or three matters you desired to bring under the notice of the Government, but first you desired, according to your custom, to offer to my colleagues, my friends, and myself a hearty welcome, which you did. You now meet the Govern- page 94 ment face to face, so that you and the tribes may speak to the Government direct. This is an opportunity which I hope you will take advantage of. Nothing will do so much to remove the doubts which exist as the fact that we are here all together, speaking as honest men should speak to one another. I believe that if your isolation were removed, if you had better means of communication, and that you could go backwards and forwards to meet the outside world, it would be an advantage to you and to the Natives right through the country I have travelled over. It is this very isolation that has caused you to be misjudged. Another false impression that has existed, which this journey will, to a large extent, remove, is that a large extent of your territory is valueless. I say that that statement is partially incorrect. You have asked me to explain the laws to you. I will give you an explanation of the latest laws passed affecting the land of the Maoris. As you have no surplus land, it will not affect you; but I will tell you the law shortly. In the first place there is a Board established that has to decide whether the land is wanted for settlement purposes, and whether the Natives are utilising it or not. Then this impartial Board—upon which the Natives have direct representation (I think they have two representatives, the member for the district, and one appointed for minors), and a Judge of the Supreme Court—these sit and decide upon the value of the surplus land which the Natives desire to dispose of. Then, when this is done, an election is held. The majority, at a meeting of all the owners of the surplus lands, elect whether or not they will hand over the land to the Government, either to sell it or lease it for them, the Natives retaining the ownership of the land, but leasing it to the Government at the price fixed by the Board. If the majority say they will not dispose of it, but want it for themselves, and decide to retain it, the law says, Very good, retain it. But if two-thirds say they do not desire to dispose of it to the Government—if they prefer to submit it to public auction and the world, so that it may fetch the highest price upon the market—the law says it shall be dealt with in that way. You will therefore see that, by the latest law passed, no advantage whatever is being taken of the Native race. All the Government desires is that the Natives should have ample land for themselves to cultivate and prosper by. That is the wish of the Government. These are the words of the head of the Government to the Native race here. We also say to the Natives—and I speak my mind to you as a friend—that it is in the interest of the Native race that the real owners of the land should be known; that the titles should be ascertained, so that the Native owners should know what belongs to them. Every day, every week, every year that this is delayed makes the danger of doing a wrong to the real owners of the land so much greater. The old men are passing away. They are the ones who know the facts upon which the titles are to be executed; and as they pass away there is no one who can give us their history. They are the connecting links with the past, who can give evidence as to who are the proper persons to obtain the land. I know that in the past, owing to this delay, wrongs have been done, and that people have reaped where they have not sown; that people who had no interest in land have obtained land which did not belong to them, and that the real owners lost it because their evidence had passed away. I know also that a great advantage would accrue if each of the Natives—say the Natives here—knew the particular piece of land that belonged to them, and that all the improvements you made thereon would be for the benefit of your wives and children. You would work with a better heart if you knew you were working for those who are ever near and dear to you. There are many who do not till, who do not work, but are content to sell what is produced by the hand of others. I say all should cultivate, but they would do better if they knew that the land they were cultivating belonged to their wives and children and those that come after them. It made me sad when travelling through the North Island to find the Natives passing away—not after arriving at a good old age, but passing away before coming to mature age; passing away before their time. And they have lived almost in a condition of poverty when they should have lived, if they had had a title to that which belongs to them, in comparative affluence and wealth. They are wealthy in land. Land is wealth; land is gold—nay, better than gold, because the land will produce so long as it is capable. But they are not producing, and that is the condition in which I find the Native race in general. What would be the good to a man if he had his weight in gold, if that gold were placed beside him on the lake with no canoe? why, he would absolutely starve; gold would be no good to him under such circumstances. Yet that is the condition in which I see the great majority of the Natives in this colony are unfortunately placed in. If, therefore, I can do anything as head of the Government that will remove this reproach from you, that will help you to improve your position, that will enable you to live in comfort, that the comfort enjoyed by the Europeans may be yours, your wives' and children's, then I say I shall do it. I am here for that purpose, that is the object of my visit on this occasion. Again I say I am not here for evil, I am here for your good. Shortly after my arrival here I saw a number of young children, ranging from four to sixteen years of age, and I asked the question if a school was established here, so that the knowledge we have could be imparted to them, and through them to their parents. The answer was that you had no school here. I asked one of your chiefs what the population of the place was, and he said close on two hundred souls—men, women, and children included. I have not been able to ascertain the number of children you have here, but what I saw would be sufficient to warrant me in saying what I am now page 95 going to say to you. I say the parents who neglect to have their children educated are doing them a serious wrong. As the world progresses, if you maintain your isolated position—if you allow your children to grow up in ignorance—they will turn round and curse the parents who gave them birth. The parents who do not use every endeavour to give their children an education are doing them a serious wrong. If you demanded it and it was refused you, then the blame would not rest with you; but if it is never asked for, then I say you are condemning your children to be slaves for all time. The uneducated will be slaves for the educated in the world. There was nothing which gave me so great pleasure at Ruatoki as when I was requested to get a school established there. The same request was made at Te Whaiti. Each asked me, as I came along, to establish schools in their midst, so that their children should receive education. I say it gladdened my heart, because it was a step in the right direction. Education is the brightest gem of civilisation. Civilisation ofttimes brings with it evils, but the real safeguard to a noble race and the completion of that race's glory is to have its people educated. Without education your position will grow worse and worse every year, and the day will come when your children will say, "Why did we not have the privilege that was given to the pakehas and others of our race in the different parts of the colony?" I was pleased when I was at Galatea to find the schoolmaster was aso a medicine-man. The Government had supplied him with medicines; he had a slight knowledge thereof, and he was acting as doctor for the district, and had been the means of saving life and alleviating the sufferings of those who were sick. I also found he was the postmaster, and that they had the convenience of a mail in the place. All this springs from the school. Now, if you have produce you want to dispose of, and your children and yourselves are not taught, how would you know you were getting a fair price for the produce you are disposing of? If there are laws being passed in Parliament, you ought to know which are for your benefit or if any are disposed to do you harm. If the latter, how are you to have them rectified if you have not some one amongst you who can read and write and know what is being done? I therefore tell you that that is the one subject which is of paramount importance to you, and it deserves your attention as soon as possible. The hour is growing late, and I will not say anything further at present. I have given sufficient indication why I am here, and that the object of this journey is for your improvement. There are three subjects you desire to bring under my notice to-night, and I should prefer that you do so to-night. I have been a long time from the outer world, and my attendance is wanted in Wellington. I have been longer away than I intended. I would have liked to have stayed with you to-morrow, and discussed matters further, but time will not permit; but I am prepared to sit up with you all night if you like. I am one of those who like work, so let us proceed if you like. If the work is to be done let us embrace the opportunity; let us do that work. Speak to me as a friend; we want to deal fairly and honestly with the Native race, and in such a way that it will promote their best interests. I wish, in conclusion, once more to thank you very heartily for the kind welcome you have accorded to my colleague, our friends, and myself; and I am not saying that which is not founded on fact when I tell you that of all occasions on which I have landed in places in New Zealand, none have given me such great pleasure as when I first set foot on the shores of Lake Waikaremoana.

Hapi said,—You deserve the thanks of all. I heartily approve of bringing the territorial boundary under the law, as mentioned by Mr. Carroll. With regard to our father's (referring to the Premier) remarks in reply to the many points raised in our speeches, I can only say I am more than pleased—in fact, the whole house joins with my hearty approval of all he has said. This is the first time we have heard any one in his position speaking. It is quite true we should not go by what we hear; it is far better that we should meet and talk face to face as we have done to-night, to hear straight from his lips the Minister's own words; that is fair, and more satisfactory. He has carefully advised us to-night, and given strong reasons why he so urges upon us that our only salvation lies in the law. With regard to our father's remark that wherever there is land it should be utilised and made productive, I may state that all the available land, so far as the Tuhoe are concerned, is occupied. The land that you saw lying unutilised when going through this territory you have properly described. It is rough and uninhabitable. The house has naught else to do but express entire satisfaction at what has been said to-night, and the counsel the Premier has given us is worthy of every consideration. He did not confine himself to the question of land alone, the position and character of it, and how it should be dealt with, but he also applied his remarks to the condition of the people, the supremacy of the law, and how the proper management of the affairs of the people can be made conducive of good results. I heartily approve of and agree with the Premier's remarks in reference to education. Education is the means of imparting knowledge to the people, which will quality them to undertake administration, and better their position. The people on this side of the lake have really no land of their own; they are living on Government land. The whole of us here agree that we should have a school. In consequence of the Premier's remarks we are anxious to have it, but I would point this out to him, that all this land we are living on is Government land. Where we are living now is only a reserve the Government gave us. We are occupying the whole of it, ourselves and our horses. If the Premier will consent to give us a portion of the Government land for a school site, we can settle the school question in one breath, because we want the school.

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The Premier: If that is the only obstacle in the way, send me the number of children here who would be likely to attend, and I will confer with the Minister of Education, and settle the matter. The school ought to be convenient to where the children are. It only requires an acre of land.

Hapi: The Government have some land adjoining this land down the valley here.

The Premier: I will make inquiries in respect to it.

Wharerangi said,—Wiremu has been applying for this school for two years. Mr. Bush came here and he also applied to have it established, but it was not granted. Captain Preece, who was Resident Magistrate then, saw the number of children we had here, and he advised the establishment of a school, but without result.

The Premier: How many children are there?

Wharerangi: Fifty.

The Premier; I will confer with the Minister for Education, and I have no doubt you will at once have the school.

Wharerangi: You will see when the list is sent you. Possibly there will be more than fifty. There is another subject we wish to lay before you which I will explain. In the Waikareiti Block, or rather division. No 10. Waipawa Block, the Government own a portion and we own a portion. The Government got a portion of this by the purchase of Block No. 10, and we have the other portion. What we propose is this; that we should surrender one portion to the Government, making the whole block Government laud, in exchange for land which belongs to the Government, and which we want. We will give up our interest in that block in exchange for the Government land here.

The Premier: The proposal seems reasonable if equal value is given in exchange. Whichever way it goes I am favourably disposed to grant the request, but I must first see the Minister of Lands and discuss the matter with my colleagues. In the face of it the proposal seems reasonable, but it may be that the land is leased or occupied by some one else, therefore it is a matter that I must make inquiries about before giving a decided answer. You had better reduce the proposal to writing and send me a letter giving details and what you are prepared to do, so that I may dea with it when I get back to Wellington.

Wharerangi; The third matter is this: There was a reserve given by the Government to us in the Tukurangi Block, and there were reserves given to us in the Taramarimari Block and Waiau Block. There were portions which I excepted from the sale of these blocks to the Government. I do not know the position of them, whether they belong to me or are still in the hands of the Government. I want you to explain to me whether we only hold this land on sufferance, or whether it really belongs to us or is still in the hands of the Government.

The Premier: Of course I cannot give a direct answer to-night, but I take it that what you desire is for inquiries to be made into this matter, and that you should be informed definitely how it stands; whether the land is yours—whether it has been legally vested in you. I will let you know after consulting the proper authorities on my return to Wellington.

Wharerangi: That is really what I want. These are all the subjects I wish to lay before you. I will just refer to the first matter mentioned by the preceding speaker, with regard to utilising the land. I believe we are utilising all we can. The bulk of our land, as you are aware, cannot be utilised, and we should be only throwing away labour and money in attempting to utilise it.

Mihaere said,—We do not object to the Native Land Court or the surveys. We are quite willing to have the titles to the land ascertained, but the bar thereto is the terrible expense we are put to for surveys, and for Land Court expenses. Past experience has been disastrous. The laud has been swallowed up in expenses.

The following morning a start was made for