Whakatane

where a large meeting was held on the arrival of the Premier from Tauranga.

The first speaker was Tamati Waaka. He said,—Welcome the Premier to Whakatane, that you may see the people of this part of the country and hear matters which may be laid before you. These are the congratulations I have to offer you. I will now address my remarks to the Hon. Mr. Carroll. Welcome, Mr. Carroll, you who have come here with the Premier, and brought him to Whakatane to see the Ngatiawa and Ngatipukeko. I will now sing a song of welcome. (Song.) Welcome to Whakatane, that you may hear what these two tribes, Ngatiawa and Ngatipukeko, have to say.

Mokai said,—We welcome you to Whakatane, that you may come to see these of your children. We are here dwelling as orphans seeking for parents—some one to be a father unto us. We have now found a father in you. We rejoice at your coming, and hence it is we accord to you the welcome we now give. I will now address myself to Mr. Carroll. Welcome, O friend! We welcome you whom we twice returned as our representative in Parliament. Now you have come to us we welcome you. Let us know the laws that are good, and the laws that are evil, so that we may hear. These are all the congratulations we propose to offer you.

Tiaki Rewiri said,—I belong to Whakatane, and my hapu is Patuwai. Salutations to you, the Minister of Native Affairs, and your colleague! My congratulations will be brief. Salutations to you the people who have done good for the tribes, and given relief in these burdensome tunes to both the hapus of Ngatiawa and Ngatipukeko. This ends my congratulations. I wish to speak to you now about the Native Equitable Owners Act, which was passed in 1886, the operation of which was extended over the land in this district last year. The Native reserves in the Whakatane district were Crown-granted under special grants in 1876, which Act brought trouble on the people, and that trouble was only cleared away by the legislation of last year or the year preceding. There is one clause in that Act, clause 5, which we ask the Premier to have amended. The clause provides that the money should pass into the hands of the Public Trustee—that is, the rent-money. My objection is that the Public Trustee should dispose of these moneys. I now apply to the Government for the lessee to pay these moneys to the Maoris or known owners—that the rents should be paid direct to the owners by the lessee. I do not object to the whole of clause 5, but I object to the Public Trustee disposing of these moneys. That is our only objection—that we do not wish this matter to be dealt with by the Public Trustee. That is the only explanation I have to give with reference to that clause. Now, this is the second matter I wish to touch upon: Trouble has come upon us through the action of the Government and the Road Boards. In 1876 we leased a certain piece of land as a site for a flour-mill; £400 was the price paid to the Government. At that time there were no written agreements. We applied for the land to be returned to us, and we only got two acres. It was arranged we should get four acres, but we only got two, and now we find the two acres we have do not include the dam where the water was. The land was afterwards leased to a European named William Kelly, but it did not include the dam. The land now, including the dam, has gone to Europeans, and we want the dam given back to us, and the four acres—that is, two acres in addition to what we have already got. This is a very great grievance of which we have to complain, and we earnestly hope the Government will give it full consideration. Now, this is the third point upon which I wish to speak, and that is with respect to the landing-site on the river. Mr. Richardson was Minister of Lands at the time. When the Minister arrived here in 1889 or 1890—I am not certain which—in consequence of an page 47 application I made to him on behalf of my people, he agreed to that site being a landing-place for, our canoes. The area of that land was fifteen acres, and it was all sand. I explained the whole situation clearly to him, and that Minister agreed we should have it for a landing-place, but we have received no document showing we have a right to that place. The promise of the Minister was not reduced to writing. Therefore it is that I now apply to the Native Minister that we may now have this matter finally and satisfactorily settled. Considerable difficulty has also arisen between us and the Europeans because of our going through their land. Therefore I ask you to see to this matter at once, for it is the cause of a great deal of trouble—having to pass through. European lands. I wish you all prosperity.

Mauparaoa: I belong to the Ngatirangititihi and Ngatipukeko. Salutations to you, Mr. Carroll—you who have been absent from this district, but have again appeared amongst us. I am the only one of my hapu here, still I welcome you. Salutations to you, accompanied as you are by the Premier. I heartily welcome both you and the Premier to this part of the country, that you both may hear what the tribes of Whakatane have to say. Salutations to you both, O my friends! I have no further welcome to give you hero, but ask you to go to Galatea, because there is an important matter to be dealt with there. Although it may be supposed you have only come to see the Tuhoe—the Urewera—there is also good reason why you should go and sec the people at Galatea, because we want to sell you our land. Should you arrive at Galatea, we can then talk of disposing of our land to the Government. These are the only subjects I have to speak about.

Hurinui Apanui: I will first welcome Mr. Carroll, in accordance with Native custom. Welcome to you, my cousin! I regret so many of our old people have passed away. You bring with you the king of the island, come and receive the good wishes of the people; you bring with you the treasures of the colony. This is the ancient landing-place of our ancestors, who brought their canoes from Hawaiki. It was here the ancient canoes of Te Arawa and Matatua arrived. Of these two canoes, Arawa landed at Maketu, and Matatua at Whakatane. These two canoes contained all the chiefs of these tribes, therefore it is right the chiefs should reassemble on this spot. Your canoe, Takitimu, passed down the East Coast. You had controlling power on your canoe, as we had on ours, Arawa and Matatua. Welcome again to you both, who have been all over the island. Salutations to you, the Premier, who is at the head of the affairs of this colony; you who have penetrated through all parts of the colony; you who have seen the good and bad parts of the colony. Welcome, that you may see the descendants of those who came by the canoe Matatua—these, the remnants, who are now before you. This is the prow of the canoe here in Whakatane. Maungapohatau and Ruatahuna are the stern of the canoe. Welcome, the Premier, this day! Bring over the light, and let its rays be shed on us to-day. Many Ministers have stood with this canoe in days gone by, from the time of Sir Donald McLean to the present time, but now we have the Premier standing on the bulwarks of Matatua. Let him be clear in what is to be done with regard to these tribes, who trace their origin from those who came in the Matatua canoe, because there is no one beyond you, O Premier, to think and decide. There is no one but yourself, for you are the alpha and omega. Here I am standing up as one of the Ngatiawa Tribe. To-morrow I will meet you as a member of the Urewera Tribe, as I am connected with both parties. I will, therefore, close what I have to say. There are many at Ruatoki who will welcome you as I have to-day. I will now speak to you with reference to a matter which was touched upon by Tiaki Rewiri—it was in reference to the mill. I corroborate what he said. All that property—four acres—that was given to us by the Government was improperly diverted. The trouble that exists in reference to that matter is with the dam. We now ask the Government to comply with Tiaki Rewiri's request—that the dam may be assured to us. Although this may be a matter which the Premier, who is also Native Minister, may not have to deal with, nevertheless we lay it fully before him. Now, with regard to the school house at Otamauru. The children have been attending school there for years; it is merely a raupo whare, and the children have been getting instruction in the raupo whare. It is very incommodious. What we would wish you to do would be to grant us a weather board house. Even though you may not grant us this request, we, at any rate, ask for a weather-board building of some sort.

The Premier: How many children are attending the school?

Hurinui Apanui: About forty-six, with an average of thirty-four. Another matter is with regard to surveying a site fora school. No survey has yet been made of a site upon which a school should be erected.

The Premier: You are in error; the site has been surveyed.

Hurinui Apanui: I will now conclude my remarks by wishing the Premier and the Hon. Mr. Carroll long life and happiness.

Meihana Kohata: I belong to Ngatipukeko. Salutations to you, the members of Parliament, who have been chosen by the House to visit us at Whakatane. We greatly rejoice at your coming amongst us. May you live for ever—all of you. We would like you to visit Te Poro Poro to-morrow. I represent Ngatipukeko, and I request you to visit To Poro Poro to-morrow. We have very many subjects to discuss and bring under your notice. We therefore hope you will visit us and come to our place to-morrow, for this reason: that we are a tribe living upon lauds reserved for us out of page 48 territory confiscated by the Government. Therefore I ask you to visit us at our principal settlement, and to hear what we have to say, and hear what all the Ngatipukeko have to say and put before you, and that we may hear what you have to say. I hope you will consent to go there tomorrow, and let us know now. If you will consent to visit us as I have requested, I will leave all subjects for discussion until then, so that the whole tribe may know what has been said.

The Premier: It is rather difficult for me to visit each of these places with the time at my disposal, and if there are sufficient representatives here to do justice to the tribes and the subjects they have to bring forward I would prefer to hear them now, and I can then be the best judge.

Tamati Waaka: When I first stood up to speak, it was simply to offer my congratulations to the Premier and to the Hon. Mr. Carroll. I now rise to say that Meihana Kohata's application to you to visit us at our settlement is correct, and I think you both ought to go there. I shall be very glad if the Premier and Mr. Carroll can see their way to fall in with the views expressed by the last speaker, Meihana Kohata, and visit Poro Poro, because the Ngatipukeko have many very important matters to bring before the Government; hence it is that I support the request that Meihana Kohata has made. There is another matter I wish to speak to the Premier about: it is with reference to a bridge. I presume the Europeans have already spoken to you about it. That bridge should be erected in the vicinity of Poro Poro. We with the Europeans are equally anxious that this bridge should be erected, and that the discussion should take place at Poro Poro, and that the Europeans and Maoris should both take part in that discussion—for this reason; that this bridge goes through our common land. It is important to us that this matter should be discussed there, as it affects our land. Therefore I say we should all meet together at Poro Poro. We hope our request will be granted, as the Premier is now here to listen to what is to be said by all parties, and we do not know when he will be able to visit us again.

Tiwai: I come from Opotiki; my tribal name from my forefathers in old times was Awa. That is from here right up to Tauranga. You, the Premier, now sitting before me, are a perfect stranger. I see you now for the first time. Before you was the Hon. Mr. Ballance, who visited this place. I hear, Mr. Premier, you came here with the Hon. Mr. Carroll, that you want roads throughout the North Island from Whakatane to Gisborne. One of my principal reasons for coming here was to speak to the Premier. I do not wish to go back to the works of our grandfathers, or even our fathers. I have known many Governments—Sir George Grey, together with his friends. Tiaki Rewiri, Ngatiawa, Ngatipukeko, and Tuhoe have claimed the Ruatoki Block, and Tuhoe created trouble in connection with the survey of it. If you visit Ruatoki possibly something will be said about this survey and these lands, therefore I think it should be spoken about here, that the Premier may know what they have to say here in Whakatane. There are three applications before the Native Land Court in reference to that block. There is a second application by Numia, also another application from the Ngatipukeko. I am most anxious that the Native Land Court should speedily adjudicate upon this block, Ruatoki, so that there may be no further adjournments, so that it may be known definitely who are the persons who own that land. I urge strongly on behalf of the Ngatiawa that the Native Land Court proceed with the investigation of the titles to this block Ruatoki—for this simple reason, that our applications were the first lodged. It was only on the application of Tuhoe that the survey was authorised and made. We, therefore, now ask the Government that there should be no further delay in bringing the matter before the Court.

Mr. Biddle, a European, whose wife was interested in the block, supported the last speaker.

Hon. Mr. Carroll: Salutations to you, the people who dwell in this part of the country—the tribes of Ngatiawa and Ngatipukeko! Salutations to you who recall to my mind the memory of our old people and the past times. Salutations to you who are here to represent your fathers who have passed away—following in the footsteps of those who are no longer amongst us. Governments have come and Governments have passed away, and in this way have our parents and our parents' parents passed away from off the face of the earth, and so it will go on. We are now searching out in these days, endeavouring to ascertain the proper path whereby we may proceed. Hence it is that the power of the land is exerted now in the earnest endeavour that good may be achieved, and therefore it is that the Premier, who is also Native Minister, accompanies me that he may visit the children of the soil. It would not be so satisfactory if you were merely communicating with the Premier by telegraph or letter. It is infinitely better that you should see him and he see you face to face, that he may see the land itself, and the survivors of the race who are occupying it. The Native race is not able to suppress the growing desire of the more powerful race, the Europeans. The European race is the dominant race in this island at the present time; they are passing some very great laws in the great Assembly House of the colony, and whatever the Native race may do, even though they appoint their own Parliament, and go away into corners and endeavour to pass legislation for themselves, they cannot detach themselves from the ruling forces at work in the colony. The salvation of the Native race will be to become united and work as one with the Europeans, and give their attention to dealing with the lands in the best and most profitable way, and for the benefit of all parties concerned. In my opinion the Native race should give in their strict adherence to the Govern- page 49 ment, and the Government would be to them as a father unto his children; and by that means the Native race will gain advantages. If the Maori race remain as an orphan, as one who has lost its parent, there will be no guiding influence; one tribe will go in one direction and one in another, and no good will come of it; but, I say, let the Natives work in a consolidated manner. You are possessed of vast areas of land, and what are you doing with it? There is a great deal of talk about it, but what good is being produced from it? The land is lying idle, nothing is being done. The land is as a mother to us all. Just compare what you do with your lands and what the Europeans do with theirs. If the European possesses a single acre he renders it productive, but you who have thousands of acres allow your land to remain unproductive and useless; your land passes away from you and then you raise your voice and clamour loudly. I think you should deal with your lands in conformity with the Act passed last session. Keep as much as you can utilise for yourselves, and the surplus lands which you cannot utilise, pass them over to the Government, and they will deal with them so that they will become profitable to you. The Act I refer to lays down distinctly how your best interests can be conserved. That is a matter which my friend the Premier will refer to presently. An innovation introduced by the present Government in the transfer of land will prove to your benefit. It is that, by selling the land to the Government, the owners can draw interest on the purchase-money, and by this means every year the accruing interest of this money would be drawn, while the principal would remain intact. By this means the Natives are assured of a regular income in case of misfortune befalling them, for they still have the annual interest on the purchase-money coming to them. This is a new feature in the policy of the present Government, and it is for the tribes now to benefit from the advantages that system offers. You all complained that the laws passed acted injuriously towards you. Supposing I were to say to you, "What law should we have?" could you answer it? We know the evils of the past; it is for us now to determine what remedies should be adopted to correct those errors. Sir Donald McLean has passed away, he who was as a parent to you. Since his time many troubles have arisen. We wish now to bring back to life the good understanding that formerly existed. Let the Government be again your parent, so that you may work together. My friend the Premier is not a Minister against the Native race; he is a Minister who is desirous of looking after the very best interests of the Natives. He is head of Native affairs in this colony; he is at the summit. I have spoken to you only in a general way. The Premier himself will presently address you. I will speak of the Premier as I have seen him; and this I assert, that whatever he says he will do he will stick to. In addressing him there is no occasion to beat about the bush or go in a roundabout way to give effect to your utterances. Speak straight-out, and he will speak straight-out to you. I will say another word to you—the land owned by the Natives not yet adjudicated upon cannot be allowed to remain in that state; the titles must be ascertained; the law must be brought into operation, so that the owners may be determined, and individual interests known and ascertained; once that is done, you are then free to utilise the land. I do not wish to take up any more of your time. I have only just touched upon the headings of things. There is one who will speak after me who will probably deal more fully with these matters. In conclusion, I wish to thank you for the kind reception you have given us to-day. I am glad to have the pleasure of meeting those who supported me in my former contest, when representing the Eastern Maori District on two distinct occasions, at the general elections, and returned me as their representative in Parliament. In this more recent contest I decided to represent a European constituency, and it was with this object: that we the Natives should pull together with the European races, not to retrace our steps and go back to the old Maori ways, which do not now fit in; and, furthermore, I felt that in representing a European constituency I would be able to do justice to my fellow-countrymen the Natives, as well as the Europeans. With regard to the request made about going to Poro Poro, my friend the Premier will speak in reference to that. The distance from here to Poro Poro is short, and there should be no difficulty in the people of Poro Poro coming here to Whakatane. However, the question of moving about is of small importance. The Premier will think over it by-and-by.

The Premier: I was so very pleased with the song of welcome with which you greeted mo that I would like to have it in my ears before I commence to speak.

Tamati Waaka here repeated the song of welcome.

At the conclusion the Premier said,—I thank you very kindly indeed. I desire to express to all here of the Native race the very great pleasure indeed that I feel in being with them to-day. It is to me all the more pleasant because the way in which they have spoken to me shows that they have confidence that I am in a position and am willing to help them. It is true that this very spot upon which we all are at the present moment is historical, from the fact that the two canoes came here—one the Arawa, and the other Matatua. You have reminded me of the fact that those who came in the canoes were all rangatiras—all chiefs. Now, when these canoes landed here, the people who were in them had left their own lands, and had only one idea, and that was to improve their condition and to make a home for those who were left behind. There was only one good feeling in the breasts of all—only one good desire; no ill-feeling existed. They were all as one man, and so that continued for many years. The first trouble that came over them was in connec- page 50 tion with the land. Then the Europeans came, many years afterwards, and further trouble arose, and that was caused through the men. Instead, then, of agreeing as brothers—instead of living in peace together—because there was quite enough land for all—they commenced to destroy each other. This evil state of things continued for some time; there was great loss of life, and many evils overtook both races. Then the forefathers of those present, the chiefs of the Native race, held a conference. They saw that the European race was increasing in large numbers, and the Natives were decreasing, that unless some position was established on a more satisfactory footing it probably meant the extermination of their children. The result of this was the signing of the Treaty of Waitangi. Now, the principles contained in that treaty were—first, that the Native race was to admit the sovereignty of the British Government—the sovereignty of the Queen—and from that day forward the Native race were to be her children just the same as the pakehas; that their welfare was to be attended to; that they were to have protection; that no one else should interfere with them; and that she—the Queen—would give them the same protection she gave her liege subjects at Home. And she conceded that they were to be the owners of the land. There were also certain privileges conceded as regards the fishing rights which had been established, and which it was considered good for the Native race should be reserved to them; your forefathers at the same time agreeing, on your behalf, that in dealing with their lands they were only to deal through the Government—that is, the Queen. The wisdom of that course has been apparent, because wherever there has been a departure therefrom trouble has overtaken both races. We must all, therefore, admit that the principles of that treaty originated with men who knew what they were doing—men who could see a long distance ahead; and I am sure that if some of your forefathers had only had an opportunity they would have left some mark behind to prevent a departure from this treaty, and would have taken steps on behalf of the Native race—would have left some command—so that a departure could not have taken place. This day the Government—Her Majesty the Queen, and those under her who are governing this country—are quite prepared—and I speak on their behalf—I say it is our desire to maintain the position that was then agreed upon by both races. I also desire to inform you of this: that I am sure Her Majesty's representative in this colony, the Governor, is very pleased indeed that I, as head of the Government, with my colleague here, have gone to considerable trouble and endured fatigue to visit Her Majesty's subjects, the Native race, in all parts of this Island; and the reason we consider this journey necessary arises from the fact that there is nothing like meeting people face to face; by opening our minds to each other, by speaking to each other as men desirous of doing good to both races—it is only by this that good can obtain. It may have been instilled into your minds—some one may have told you—that the Prime Minister Was an enemy to the Native race, or that I was a person who had ño kindness in my disposition, that I would not listen to the Natives, or treat them as I would the pakeha. Now, it is to me just as much pleasure to meet you, to hear you speak your minds to me, and to know your minds—I say it is just as much pleasure to me as though I were meeting a number of Europeans, and they were speaking their minds to me. Even before your Words of welcome were interpreted to me I could see by your manner, and the way in which I was received here to-day, that you were all glad to meet me. I knew that I was amongst friends; and I want you to understand clearly that in me you have a sincere friend—not one who will use smooth words to you, use words which have no meaning—one who will make promises to you and not perform them—but one who wishes to treat you as a father would treat his children—telling them what is in their best interest; determined to do nothing but what is in their interest. You told me to-day you were like orphans waiting for their father to arrive; that you recognised in me, as head of the Government and head of the colony, one who would see to the orphans of this district. Of course, we are only speaking figuratively; still, at the same time, now that I have seen the district and the condition in which you are in, I should say you are orphans—in fact, I should say you are as stepchildren whose father has not been kind to them. Now, the fault does not lie with those who have been in the same position I occupy—there have been many Governments and many Native Ministers—but the fault does not lie with the Government—the fault lies with the Natives themselves. They have not agreed amongst themselves; they have remained, as it were, antagonistic to the Government, antagonistic to the pakeha. Not by openly resisting the laws—though there has been resistance to what the Europeans intended for your welfare—your minds have been poisoned by designing persons, and you have refused to listen to your best friends. You are wealthy beyond your own knowledge; rich beyond conception, if you only knew it. If any of the Europeans in this country owned as much land as you Natives here, they would be considered—and actually would be—very wealthy persons indeed. And yet, what do I find? I find, on looking all round, that there is no prosperity—in fact, the Natives scarcely know where their food for the season is to come from. You go on like that year after year; your numbers are dwindling down gradually, and you are surely passing from off the face of the earth. Now, I am grieved, as head of the Government,—and I speak for Her Majesty the Queen and for her representative here in the colony,—when I say that all her subjects are sorry to see a noble race passing away, and those who remain in the state of almost abject poverty in which we find them; and I am sure your wise men, your chiefs, see that they are passing away—see that the young children are dying off, that men do not page 51 live to mature age as they used to, but sec sickness and ill-health overtaking them. Your wise men, I say, see this just as well as I do. Your pakeha neighbours who are living near you, and with whom you are on very good terms, also see that you are passing away, and say, "Cannot this be stopped?" Then this causes the thinking men of the Native race, and also of the European race, to reflect, and we say, then, surely something can be done to prevent this. Now, the result of these reflections has been given effect to by the Parliament, because the Parliament speaks both for the Europeans and the Native race; and laws have been passed in the interest of the Native race, and which, if given effect to, and taken in the spirit intended, will go a long distance to prevent the races from disappearing from the face of the earth, and will certainly improve the condition of the Native race. You said here to-day that you were pleased to meet me and my colleague, because you said we had brought laws, and would explain these laws to you. You spoke truthfully; we do bring with us the law. My colleague very shortly touched upon the laws passed. I will go further into that law. In your interest we must commence with this assumption first: that as the Natives stand to-day with large tracts of land which they cannot use themselves, and are not using, but which require to be used for their benefit as well as the Europeans, that condition of affairs cannot exist any longer. As pointed out by the Hon. Mr. Carroll, my colleague, the Europeans use the land, and cause it to produce so that they can live. The Natives are not utilising much of the land they own. The great trouble with them is that one does not like to improve the land because he is improving for another—some one else gets the benefit. This uncertain state of affairs keeps the country unimproved. Therefore, we must, in the interest of the Natives, ascertain who it is that owns the land; and I am sure in this very district the feeling exists amongst the different tribes and hapus that they are not able amongst themselves to decide who the land belongs to. One disagrees—one claims it, others dispute it; and I find within a certain radius here that this feeling exists, and it is not in your interest or the interest of the Europeans. Now, if the title to the land was ascertained, and every one knew who it belonged to, these disputes would be settled once and for all, and adjusted fairly; you would be all on the very best of terms, and there would be a kindly feeling existing amongst you. Now, some have petitioned to have the land put through the Court, and get it surveyed. Others object to its being surveyed, and even break the law, and will not permit the titles to be ascertained. The position is this: Speaking for the people here, one of the speakers said, "We desire that the Government should ascertain the titles and put the land through the Court." Well, that is his wish; he speaks, of course, for those interested. Where I go to-morrow they may oppose this being done. They may say to me, as head of the Government, "We do not wish this to be done." Now, I always have this feeling: that those who do not want the land to go through the Court appear as if they were afraid, and this weakens their case; but I will not come to a conclusion until I have heard the other side. I will hear them and see if they have any objection. I will treat the Natives as I would treat the Europeans. I will hear all they have to say, and then decide. But I will tell you this: the Parliament has given me power to say that, whether the owners want it or not, whether they object or not, the power rests with the Government of saying that the titles to the land must be ascertained. So that, even though all opposed it, the power is with the Government to say the titles to the land shall be ascertained. I wish you to distinctly understand this, for it is to your interests. And this great power that is given to me and given to the Government, we intend to use; but at the same time we intend to use it mercifully, the same as a father would use it in the interest of his children whom he loves so dearly. Now, when we have done this, the owners of the land will be in a position to do two things: First, they will be able to know where their own particular land lies, and if they want to go upon it and cultivate it they can do so, fence it in, and live upon it. You will then be in the same position as the pakehas. If there is more land awarded to you than you can utilise, or than you want for your families, then the law provides that you can either sell it or lease it under the same laws the Government lease Crown lands to the Europeans; and, so that you shall not be unfairly dealt with, there is a Board appointed to value the land and fix a fair value for the Natives, and on that Board there is a Native Commissioner and the member for the Native race for the district. The others are Government officials, who have no interest except in seeing there is a fair value given to the Natives for the land. If they are satisfied with the decision of the Board as to the value of the land, and two-thirds of the owners of the land object, then the land is put up to public auction and disposed of; so that you will therefore see that, whilst we have taken those great powers I have alluded to as regards ascertaining the titles, still the principle is laid down that you must only dispose of the surplus lands, and at such a price as is fair to you. I desire, in conclusion, while speaking on this subject, to impress upon you this fact: that the Government is standing between you and six hundred thousand Europeans. The pressure is becoming greater and greater every year. The Europeans are very much irritated because there is no land upon which they can go. The Natives, they say, are not cultivating the land, and there it remains in a state of nature. Every week that this position is maintained is against the Natives. The laws now passed are very fair, and if advantage is not taken of them—if the Natives do not accept what we have been able to get for them now, I fear they will have cause to regret it. As one taking a father's interest in you, I am here to-day asking page 52 you to assist me in solving this difficult problem. Now, I desire also to tell you that, in ascertaining the titles, the Government are determined to avoid the great expense you were formerly put to; and I believe it has been the great expense of the past that has prevented the Natives from getting the land put through the Court. One way of lessening the expense of putting the land through the Court is for the Government to put their officers where the large majority of the Natives are located. All the Government has to do is to take two or three officers and locate them where the majority of the Natives are. There are scores of your wives and children who have to go where the Court is; they are put to great expense for food, and evils overtake them, which, I think, would be avoided if we establish the Courts where the majority of the Natives are located. Now, you may ask me what proof the Government has given that they are your friends. My answer is. We are, because to-day you have informed me that you are very pleased we have passed the Equitable Owners Act. The injustice of the Act of 1876 was remedied by the Act passed last session. This Act gives you fair-play. You have asked for amendments; you desire that moneys received here as rental should be paid to you direct, instead of being sent to Wellington and paid to the Public Trustee. I will see what can be done in that respect, and if it cannot be done at less expense. The matter shall receive my serious consideration. There have been very great evils existing in the past, and I will tell you why. Moneys have been received by trustees for minors, and the trustees have never given the money to those whom it belonged to; and it is to prevent anything of that kind arising that the Public Trustee has been appointed to receive these moneys. If, therefore, we can arrange that the same security be given, so that the right persons shall get the money, and be put to less expense, the Government will try to bring that about. Now, as regards this site for a dam. The land has, I believe, passed away from the Government, and where the dam is now located is land belonging to the School Commissioners, and it has been given to them as an endowment; and I fear they will not be prepared to give it up unless they are compensated. When asking for the land, it is a great pity you did not ask to have the land put in the right position; when giving the boundaries you excluded the right to the dam. If, on inquiry, I find the position is different to what I have been informed, then I may be able to rectify matters; but at present I have been informed that where the dam now is is an endowment given to the School Commissioners, and the Chief Commissioner of Crown Lands for the Auckland District is the authority for my making this statement. If it were still Crown land, there would not be much difficulty in dealing with it; but not being Crown land, the Government have no more control over it than the Natives. The question raised was that four acres were asked for originally, and only two acres were received. You now ask for the four acres, because it would give you this site for a dam. This is like locking the stable-door when the horse has gone: the land has gone from the Government. However, I will make inquiries into the matter, and ascertain how the mistake came to be made. The next question I come to is the landing-place. I was told that the Minister who was here some time ago promised that what you ask should be conceded. When Ministers make promises they should always keep them. I was asked to-day to give a written document, because it was inferred, I suppose, that, having got the promise of a previous Minister, and not knowing me, you wished to have a written document to insure the promise being carried out. I can give you better than a written document, because I can give you the information that what you wish has already been conceded; the place has been gazetted as a landing reserve. My colleague, Mr. Cadman, who was the Native Minister before me, sent a direct communication here that this landing-place is absolutely gazetted. I will net give anything in writing, because if I were to do so it would be casting a doubt upon myself. It was a young man who asked me to give this in writing. If he had lived a few years ago, and had asked the rangatira of his tribe to give him anything in writing after his word had been passed, the rangatira would have considered himself insulted. I want the young representatives of the Native race to be in the same position as their forefathers. I want them to hold to the principle that when once their word is spoken it can be relied on, and I am sure that, if that is the case, they will beget the confidence of the pakehas; and, on the other hand, I wish the pakehas, when dealing with the Natives, to behave as gentlemen and honourable men, and keep their words. As regards not keeping to their word, I think the Natives have learnt that bad habit from the Europeans. I will look up the Gazette, and send you a copy of it; and if there is anything further required to complete the promise that was made you may rest assured it will be done. It is just as well that the landing reserve was marked, so that the Natives should know what land they owned, and avoid unpleasantness with the Europeans, thus placing them in an independent position. I am grieved to hear that your rights to the land have been disputed. I do not like to hear of your being treated with contempt by the Europeans. I do not think that is right. I know it is things of that kind which create bad feeling. Now, I will conclude by referring to the position as regards my work to-morrow. I was told that the key was here that would fit the lock of any door in New Zealand. What is the use of the key being here and in the lock when the Natives themselves will not turn it? I have told you to-day that the door is here; I told you the key is in the door, and it rests with yourselves whether you turn it and open the door to prosperity for yourselves and your children after you. All that is required of you in your own interests is to see that the land wanted for yourselves is reserved; that the balance of the land—the surplus land—is dealt with so that there page 53 may be an annual sum of money given to every one of the individual owners year by year. When the pakeha wants to make provision for himself in his old age, he purchases what is known as an annuity. You are now in a position, if you like, to insure that yourselves and your children after you receive a sum of money every year. When the pakeha wants to provide for his children after he is dead, he insures his life. Now, you are in a position, every one of you, to insure your lives both for yourselves and your wives and children after you—a sum of money every year so long as the grass grows and the water runs. What you are doing with the land to-day is of no value to you whatever—you get nothing from it; and yet that very thing can be converted into an annuity for yourselves and your children for all time. What I allude to is the disposal of surplus lands. When you sell, you can take one-half cash and one-half in debentures; or if you like you can, at your own option, put it all in debentures. Now, a debenture is a piece of paper with the stamp of the Government upon it—with the Queen's crown upon it—and the Queen undertakes every year, if the surplus land sold is worth, say, a hundred pounds, to pay five pounds. She would say to whoever got that piece of paper, "Here is five pounds for you." Now, that paper could not go to any one else but the one who got that piece of paper, and whose name was upon it. If trouble overtook you—even though you were compelled to go through the Bankruptcy Court—still that debenture and the interest payable thereon is not transferable, and cannot be attached for debt. It is only the property of the one who gives the land and has got the debenture. Now, if you do not want to sell the land, but prefer to lease it, the Government has taken power by the Act of last session to advance you 4 per cent, of the value of the land you offer to lease, so that you can have something to live upon. I have just put these things to you so that you will understand that I have not come here to-day promising, but to show what we have actually done for you. The law is upon the statute-book, and if you like to take advantage of it you can do so to-morrow. Well, now, I will tell you what pained me very much yesterday. I was told that Hori Ngati, of Tauranga, had sent messengers ahead of me endeavouring to injure the Native race by saying you were to take up a negative position—that you were not to listen to the Prime Minister. I only mention this because, if it is true, he is no friend of the Native race. I would like to know from any one here whether they have heard anything of this. I do not want to do him an injustice, I simply want to find out whether there is any foundation for this rumour. If you have heard anything of that, you had better speak to me through your chief, and let me know. Lot Mr. Carroll know later on, because I am determined to get to the bottom of this. If I find people poisoning the minds of the Native race against what is in their best interest, and endeavouring to frustrate what we are striving to do on their behalf, I intend to take very strong measures indeed in reference to those people; and it is all the more grievous where the person pretends to be friendly to the Government, and is receiving favours from the Government, and at the same time behind the back of the Government is doing them an injury, and an injury to his own people. If you have heard anything of this you can tell my colleague, and I shall be very pleased indeed, because it is in your own interest to help me to prevent any misconduct of that kind. I now come to the most pleasant thing that has happened this afternoon. Nothing gave me so much pleasure as the request made for school-accommodation. Now, to see to the education of your children was one of the promises made on behalf of the Queen when your forefathers agreed to acknowledge her sovereignty, and become her people; and I shall do all that I can to give effect to that condition. I look upon the education of the Native race, and the establishment of these schools, as being of paramount importance. Under the altered circumstances in which we live, if you do not receive an education, then you will be compelled for all time to hold inferior positions. We have proved by those who have gone to our schools and colleges that you have intellect, and your children only require an opportunity to go to the schools to hold the same positions as the pakehas. Nothing gives me greater pleasure than to find representatives of the Native race in the Government service. I have seen them in different departments, I have seen them in commercial positions, and I would like to see them much more numerous than they are throughout the colony. Those parents who neglect to give their children an opportunity of receiving an education are not good parents; they are doing their children a very grievous wrong. But you bring it home to the Government when you say you send your children (and there is an average attendance of over thirty-four) to this raupo building. The school site has been surveyed, and on my return to Wellington I will see the Minister of Education, and will tell him that, as Minister for Public Works, I shall be only too glad to put up a building for you, so that your children can go to a decent school; and if we prove our sincerity by putting up a building, we hope you will prove that you are sincere by sending your children to that school. Now, as regards to-morrow, to-day was rather wet, as you know, and the distance from Poro Poro to here not being more than two miles, the Natives there ought to have come and seen me. It was not for me to go and see them, when it was only two miles to come. People who have serious business to bring before the Prime Minister, business that affects them more than the Prime Minister, and where the business is almost of life and death, it seems strange to me that they would not go two miles to meet the Minister and tell him their business. They want a bridge, I believe, as well as the Europeans. The latter came ten and twelve miles to-day to let me know this bridge was wanted. Well, if the pakehas can come page 54 twelve miles to let me know their wants, surely the Natives could have come two miles to let me know theirs; but I was told what they had to say to me, and they desired the whole tribe should hear it. I suppose they meant the women and children; there was, however, nothing to stop the men coming here. Probably the women and children could not come, therefore they want me to come and talk to them. I am not afraid to meet women, and I love children; but it is an unusual request, if that is what they wanted me to do, to go and meet their women and children. If to-morrow—as I go past—time will permit me to spend a few minutes at Poro Poro, I shall have very great pleasure in seeing them. But the time will be very short, and it would have been much better to have let me know to-day what they wanted than to-morrow. But probably I am doing them an injustice; perhaps it is only Maori custom—that they would like me to go and visit their village, so that they could give me a welcome there; and I will accept it in that spirit. Now, I am asked to go to Galatea. I am a stranger in this part of the colony, and do not know how far it is, and what road I should have to go. I have been asked to go to some strange places during this trip; at one place I was asked to cross the Jordan, at another I was asked to go to Jerusalem. Where Galatea is I do not know, and I do not know whether you have got a Galilee or not; but the business I was asked to go there upon was the purchase of Native lands, and the representatives of the owners of this land stated to me that they (the owners) desired to see me, and desired to sell this land to the Government. As I am assured that this place is on my road, the representatives of the Natives from Galatea may inform the latter that I will call there, and be prepared to go into business with them as regards acquiring the lands they have mentioned. I have, therefore, only one more subject, and that is the survey of the block of land which was mentioned here—the Ruatoki. I will see the Natives to-morrow on my journey, and, after I have seen them, I will send word back as to the decision of the Government; but I desire to confer with the whole of the claimants before I finally decide. If I were to say to-day. Yes, without consulting them, they would have a grievance, and would say, "You knew you were coming through our district; if you were our friend, you would have spoken to us before coming to a decision." I desire to treat the Natives the same as the Europeans, and, in doing this, I am following the same course as I would with regard to Europeans. I think it is always best to reason with the people of both races; to explain matters to them; to appeal to their good sense: not to try to coerce them. If you convince a person—no matter what country he belongs to—that what you are doing is in his interest, he submits with a good grace. I have told you what the law is, and told you of the great power that is vested in the Government of the day. I have told you that Parliament has said that all lands must have an owner, and that the titles thereto must be ascertained, and the Parliament of New Zealand—there is only one Parliament—is supreme over everything else. If you want any grievances redressed, if you are suffering from any wrongs, you should appeal to me; let me, if I can, help you. I will go further than that, I will ask you to appeal to Parliament for relief. You have in that Parliament four of the Native race who are representatives of the Native race. In that Parliament, according to your numbers, according to the number of Natives in the colony, you have more members in the House than the pakehas have got. You also have a representative of the Native race in the Cabinet; and if any ill befalls you it is your own fault, and you will be to blame. I have told you the Government desires to do what is right; Parliament is there for you to appeal to. If you take up a negative position, all I can say is this: take the consequences, you yourselves are to blame. There is Her Majesty the Queen, who I have told you has much interest in your welfare, whose wish is to see you prosper the same as her European subjects. You are all one to her. You must therefore obey her laws. There are not two sets of laws in this colony; there is the same law for the Europeans as for the Natives, and if you do not observe these laws then trouble will come upon you. You have one Government and one Parliament. The head of the Government is now speaking to you, and to do that he is travelling very many miles. You said to-day you looked upon me as your father. I have spoken to you to-day as a father would speak to his children; and I am prepared, if you are good children, to do that which will prosper you in this world; and when the Parliament meets I shall be very pleased to be able to tell the Parliament that I have met the representatives of the Native race in different parts of the colony, and that I have had from them good wishes and a hearty welcome, and the assurance that they Would do that which was in their own interest and the interest of the colony, and that they would live in friendship, peace, and harmony with their pakeha brothers; and I assure you that it is the wish of the pakehas that you should live in contentment and prosperity. They are grieved to see you passing away. You are the only remnant of a noble race, but that race, when the pakehas were few, when they first came here to your country, were their friends, and now we—the Europeans—desire to be your friends. My last words to you are words of thanks for the kind welcome you have accorded to us; and if good results from my visit to you I shall be amply repaid for the trouble I have taken in coming to see you. I will now say good-bye.

On Sunday the Premier and party proceeded, in a heavy downpour of rain, to Ruatoki, the Hon. Mr, Seddon and Hon. Mr. Carroll visiting Poro Poro for a short time en route. On arrival at Ruatoki arrangements were made for a meeting on the following morning, the Premier and Hon. Mr. Carroll returning to Mr. Gould's station, about three miles back on the road, to spend the night, page 55 where they were most hospitably entertained by Mr. Grant, the manager. Early the next morning the Premier and party arrived at Ruatoki, and were accorded a most enthusiastic welcome. The meeting was held in the open air, on the large terrace upon which the settlement is built.

The Premier opened the proceedings by saying,—Salutations and friendly greetings to all of you! I have come a long distance to see you, and I am pleased to meet you. It is the first time the head of the Government has come to see you; and, when I speak here to-day, I speak on behalf of six hundred thousand people, and their greeting to you through me is friendly. When there are any grievances amongst the pakehas, when they have something that troubles their minds, then the head of the Government speaks to them and asks them to tell him what their grievances are, so that he may be able to remove them. For the first time, therefore, you are now treated the same as the pakehas are treated by the rangatiras of the Government. I would therefore, to-day, ask you to speak your mind freely; my ears are open, and you are speaking to one who wishes to be a father to you. The welfare of yourselves—the men, women, and children of these tribes—is in your hands to-day. If you fail to open your minds to me and speak freely to me as a friend, willing and anxious to better your position and do what is in the best interest of you all, I say, if you fail to do this, and disaster should follow, then you have only yourselves to blame; the trouble will have been caused by your own action. I am here to-day to remove troubles, not to make them. Only yesterday we had rain coming down; a mist was over the land. Now, we see the mist has risen, the ram has stopped, and all is bright. It struck me as being typical of the state of your minds. Let me venture to hope that, as the mist has cleared from the earth so it will clear from your minds; and when I leave here, in a very short time, all the troubles that you labour under may be removed, leaving everything bright and cheerful for you. Believe me, this is my earnest hope. These are my words to you now. I will say nothing further at present, but explain our relative positions; and I rely upon you to be true to yourselves—to think of those who have gone before you—your forefathers; to think of those who come after you, and to assist me to help you to remove your troubles. I am deeply grieved and pained to find you as I find you at the present time. You are really well to do. You ought to be in a much better position—much more comfortable—than I find you; and it was with a view to promote that comfort and prosperity that I have gone through this fatigue and come amongst you to-day. I was told by your enemies,—because they are your enemies,—that I would not be welcome here amongst you; but, from what I have heard from your lips this morning, I shall be able to tell the world I was welcomed; that you were pleased to meet and hear me, and have your grievances adjusted. You have enemies, who desire on the sly and under cover to do you an injury. It is these enemies who made these assertions which are untrue. But when people meet as we meet to-day, face to face, and are reasonable with each other, and when I have heard you and heard your greivances, I hope, when I return, to tell the pakehas that they have been untruthful about you; that you are a good people, desirous of promoting both the interests of yourselves and the Europeans. This is a grand country; surely good people of both races should live in peace and contentment side by side; live in this colony so that when the time comes, and we are gathered to our forefathers, we can say we have been good people. I have not come to-day to use empty words. I bring with me in my hand a law which was passed in your favour last session; and I am here to-day to explain to you the provisions of this law, which has been assented to by Her Majesty, and I will prove by this that the Government, of which I am the head, are your friends. When the pakeha boy or Maori boy goes to school you give him a slate; he makes figures and writes upon the slate. When he does not do it right, he wipes it off, and makes a fresh start. I want the tribes and your representatives to do the same here to-day. Now, we will say, we will bury the past, wipe it out, as the boy would wipe it off his slate. Let both parties determine that what they do shall be in the interest of both races, and of every man, woman, and child here. I have gone through the centre of the island; I have met thousands of the Native race, and, wherever I lave met them, we have had our explanations, and we have parted on the very best of terms; we have parted as good and true friends. Just the same as I have met face to face the Native race belonging to the different tribes, North, South, East, and West, I say I am here to meet you as representative of the Government. I know that there are enemies, and that there are those who are not true friends of the Native race. They send their emissaries, who are trying to poison your minds. They are enemies, coming with evil tongues before me; but when I meet the people and explain matters to them all these lies will be set aside, and they will believe the man who is the chief rangatira in this country, and who, when he gives his word, always keeps it—whether to Europeans or Natives. Having thus put the case, I challenge them. I say, Why slink behind bushess? Come out in the open, and meet me face to face. I am here to meet them alone; and if they come before me I will, single-handed, subdue them, and prove their words are untrue and evil,—that they are not your friends, and are doing you an injury. They come to me as head of the Government; they tell me, "We are your friends," and actually draw money from the Government, and then go behind the Government and create evil amongst the Native race so as to elevate themselves and get money from the Government. I say, "I do not want you; stand aside, your hands are soiled; your hands are not free; I do not want you, stand aside." I will go through the Native page 56 districts and meet the Maoris as man to man. They are wise men, and I will speak to them so that they may be able to understand that what we desire to do is in the interest of themselves and the country. My heart is not made of stone. I see a noble race, and see that they are disappearing from the face of the earth. I say, it is my desire to preserve that race. I see them living in absolute poverty, not having sufficient food, not having the comforts they ought to have. We wish to alter this state of things, and let them live happy and contented by our side. I have thus given you briefly the object of my visit; and now I wish you to open your minds to me—to speak freely as man to man. You have now got a chance to speak; to meet face to face the head of the Government of the country. Speak to me as a friend; do not let your words disguise your thoughts; let your mind and words be open, so that we may thoroughly understand each other, even though you speak unpleasant words to me. Do not be afraid to be truthful. I know that there is trouble amongst you, and that there is trouble in your minds; these troubles are easily removed, if you will only be open and truthful to me, and let me know really what the trouble is. If you do not do so, and disaster follows, the responsibility is with you. If you do yourselves, your wahines, and your children an injury, the responsibility is with you, not with me; therefore, I say, speak out plainly.

Kereru said,—Salutations to you, the Premier, and your younger brother, Mr. Carroll! Salutations to you Mr. Carroll, who have come to see your people; formerly you were their representative. This is your second coming here. Welcome to both the Premier and yourself, who come to benefit me or injure me—even though it may be to strike the land or the people! My ears have listened to rumour, which I have been inclined to believe, that you are evilly disposed towards us. I have heard that you were here to destroy me. I will now sing a song of welcome. [Song.] Again I offer you salutations and greetings for coming here, lest you should think I am standing without the pale of the law. In former times I was not an upholder of the law; I was in rebellion. Now, in these days, I am endeavouring to carry on the affairs of the Natives in accordance with the law of justice. That is why I offer you the sincere welcome I have. I give you the welcome of the Tuhoe people, and offer my congratulations to the both of you who have met upon this open space to see us here to-day. I have no such word as this to say to you, "Go back to Whakatane on the contrary, I invite you here that I may lay my words before you in your presence. Some of the remarks that have fallen from you I will eagerly devour, those that are palatable; those that are bitter I will reject.

Tutakanahao said,—Welcome! Welcome! I wish to express my great satisfaction at your coming here to look into the matters we wish to place before you. Welcome to you, 0 my parent! Your coming here is what my heart has so earnestly desired, as also that of what I might call the orphans and the poor. It is only by the law that difficulties can be removed and remedies can be obtained—that is, through you, who have brought words of love to me, and who represent the law. When the law became established the evil passed away. Welcome to you who have come here, bringing with you words that the heart may seize hold of. The desires of the heart shall be fulfilled; those things that the heart does not desire shall be rejected. Welcome again. It is well. I again pay my respects to you who have so exerted yourselves in coming this distance to see us. This is the second time the Government have come here. I regard with great importance your visit here; it will, I hope, be of great good to the Maori race, and may God protect and guide you and us in our works.

Makarini said,—Welcome, Mr. Carroll, to this part of the country—come to the place where you spoke your words on a former visit; come to have those words carried out. In those words which you spoke, and your presence at that time amongst us, was our salvation. You pointed out and assisted in the laws that were laid down to benefit us. I voted for you to be returned as a member of Parliament to represent and conduct the affairs of this Island, and now I desire to express my approval and satisfaction at your again coming amongst us. We see one another again, and can exchange our thoughts. If any difference of opinion had taken place between us I should have let it be known. I should now like to address myself to the head of the Government of this colony. I have seen many chiefs of the Government of New Zealand. I have seen Sir Donald McLean—he was the first—and I expressed to him my respect and praise, because he had done a great deal for this country. On the occasion of Sir Donald addressing us, he desired that the Maori and European races should become united as one people, and I cheered his sentiment on that occasion. Afterwards people came stealthily amongst us saying I was betraying the Government; then trouble arose. After this the representative of the Government again came amongst us, and the trouble was dispersed. Now you have come amongst us. I have trouble on hand, recent trouble. I interfered with the survey. Some of my people are not present; they are not able to go about, because the word of the law is still upon them; they are not free. I am greatly pleased to hear you say that all troubles can be removed, because they are upon those here who are liable to be arrested at any moment. The warrants are still out on account of the trouble tor which they became liable to the law. Therefore it is that I appeal to you. Sir, as head of the Government, to wipe away the difficulty that overshadows them, and see the trouble removed. page 57 I am delighted we have met you, and that you have found pleasure in meeting us. I am one who is an adherent of the law. Welcome, oh, welcome!

Te Hiko said,—I am come in the path laid down by our parents, the Government. Welcome here on the occasion of your visit to the Tuhoe Tribe. My excellent elder cousin (Mr. Carroll), who is now performing this journey, it is well for you to see the people and enlighten them; bring salvation with you. I am standing here in darkness, but still with a fervent hope of seeing the light. That is all I have to say to you. To you, O Premier, I address my words and welcome you here. Welcome, you who bring those advantages which will be of benefit to us. I listened attentively to your words, and I am pleased at your bringing the good tidings to the Tuhoe people Your visit is indeed an excellent one. I will now sing a song of welcome. [Song.]

Paora Kingi said,—In accordance with Native custom, I welcome you, Mr. Carroll, to this place, which you visited on a former occasion. It is well. I will now address myself to the Premier. Welcome, O Minister! who is administering the affairs of both the European and the Maori races. I offer you my greetings on account of the expression of opinion you have given to this meeting. It has been said by Europeans and Natives that the object of your visit here was to do injury unto us. I have held steadfastly to peace since the days of Sir Donald McLean, and up to the present day I continue to be a loyal subject to the Queen. After having heard what you have said to us who are assembled here, our hearts greatly rejoice. What I am about to do now is in accordance with Maori custom. I am about to address you in song. [Song.] To you, the Premier, I appeal to-day to unloosen the bond on those who are to be arrested; to free them. The law overshadows them, and they want it removed. This place belongs to those against whom warrants have been issued. It was in connection with this block the arrests were made. That is my request to you—that you will give this matter your consideration.

Tipihau said,—I offer you my congratulations, Mr. Carroll. I am new to you, having only just seen you. I express my respect and regard to you. It is an important thing that we should see one another. Welcome, whether it be for evil or good, or whether it be to destroy. Lay down what you have to say with regard to Ruatoki. Welcome, O my loving friend, the Premier! Great is my pleasure and joy at your coming here. Your people are dwelling on my land. This is the permanent canoe of Tuhoe. The faith and love of Tuhoe will not cease; and should trouble and misfortune arise among any of the tribes in any part of New Zealand, they will be no party to those troubles or difficulties. I again welcome you, and shall be pleased to hear you speak of the troubles that are besetting these people.

Hetaraka Whakanua said,—I stand up here to welcome Mr. Carroll, and the Premier, and the friends who have come hero to visit us. I wish to express my pleasure to both of you, and your friends, for coming here to see Tuhoe this day. I am very pleased to hear what the Premier has said in addressing the people here, and trust that the good advice he has given will be followed, and that prosperity may accrue to the men, women, and children. I am intensely gratified to hear the remarks that have fallen from the Premier. I was delighted to hear those words when he urged the people here to lay bare before him the thoughts that are within them. That is, indeed, an excellent proposition—namely, advising the Natives here to lay clearly before him what their grievances are, and what their thoughts are. Well, one matter that is troubling the hearts of the people here has already been explained to the Premier, and it relates to those people who are liable to be arrested. That is one point. There is another matter, and it is with reference to what Tipihau, the last speaker, said. I quite agree with him that should any trouble or difficulty arise among the Natives in any part of the colony we (Tuhoe) will in no way participate in those troubles. If any tribe should arise hostile to the European race I will side with the European, and wipe out my debt. I am the friend of the Europeans from henceforth. Now, with regard to what the Premier said about laying before him any matters the Natives had to complain of, I will touch upon a matter in which the Tuhoe tribe are particularly interested. It is a matter that is creating some difficulty in the boundary of Tuhoe. I will explain what this matter is that is creating the trouble amongst the Tuhoe, and causing dissension amongst ourselves. It is about a school. I desire a school should be established in our district, and there are others against it. That is all I have to say at present. Long life and prosperity to you all!

Hon. Mr. Carroll said,—Salutations to you, the Tuhoe people! This is a visit in accordance with the same questions about which I visited you formerly. We meet in the open, and there is no reason why any words should be held back. Salutations to you my elder cousins, and younger relatives! No matter what reports or remarks you may have heard, I am here, and you will be able to hear the statements of those in authority, who have come to meet you face to face. Many of the old people have passed away, but the words of Sir Donald McLean still live over the land of the Tuhoe people. It was yourselves who branched off from the path that in former times was laid down for you to follow; it was yourselves who adopted and followed out the wrong course, and in these past actions you stumbled on the way. My efforts have been that you should be all gathered together and act in a united manner; that everything should be done in the open, and in a public manner among you. While some of you may weary and fatigue, the Government never tire. Generally, the law has been well observed by the Maori people. It is true that there were page 58 some who, acting under ill-advice, diverted from the path of the law as laid down. There was a false step taken in the Waikato; Orakau followed, and men were swept off the face of the earth. Though the tribes became decimated, the land still remains. This latter fact was not the result of your knowledge, but the result of the law which was placed over you for your safety. It is right and proper that the darkness of the past should be wiped away. The son now shines upon the summit of every hill; the days of evil have passed away, and we are now working in more advantageous times, and with better results. It is quite right that incidents of the past should be thought of and compared with the present. There is a distinct and definite object in this visit to the tribes throughout the Island. Now for the first time the Maori people meet face to face the head of the Government. The reason why I accompanied the Premier on his visit to all the Maori people is that benefit and advantage to the Maori race may accrue, and that you and all your people may be benefited by this visit, and that you may follow out the advice given to you. The Premier has informed you that he is the mouthpiece of the people of this Island. He is the head of all, and what he undertakes to carry out I hope will be faithfully performed. Hence, it is, I say to you, O Tuhoe, let not there be any portion of your thoughts kept back within your hearts. All the evils of the past have arisen from misunderstandings, and through the thoughts of one and the other not being properly and fairly disclosed. Therefore, lay bare, and fully communicate your ideas here in this open space where we are now assembled; let us, in a proper spirit, approach each other, so that you on your part may know precisely what we mean, and that we on ours may know exactly what your thoughts are, that we may be clear in what we have to say to each other. The shadow of evil comes forth from the evil tongue. So far it has been all talk; the actual difficulties have not yet been grappled with in a manner so that they may be settled. It is of little use saying that laws are good or bad. What is the law that has afflicted you? Show us clearly what law it is under which you suffer? Why not say the question of surveys is one that has afflicted us, or say the laws that affect our lands are working injuriously against us, that the Native Land Court is a source of injury to us? Let us know what the evil is. You are simply allowing the land to lie waste; it is not the law that is encouraging that state of affairs; it is not the Government who are allowing the land to lie idle, but it is yourselves. These are the subjects that should be earnestly discussed by us. If the land is the source of trouble, make clear to us that fact, and let us see how that trouble can be removed. If it be the laws that relate to the lands that are the cause of the trouble, then point out to us those portions of the law that so affect you. If it is beyond you to discuss the laws, this, however, you can do: you can make known to us the causes of your suffering. In this tour of ours through the North Island we started from the head of the fish, passed through the centre of the Island, went to the Waikato and visited the tail of the fish, where dwelleth the Ngapuhi, and now we have come here to interview you. All these tribes that we have met have laid all their troubles before us, and discussed whatever they had to complain of in regard to their lands with us. Now, to-day is the time for you. Come, do as these other tribes have done. Quite understand that to-day is the day upon which you may be recorded as having been "born again." A new order of things, and a new law unto the people, are now in this Island, and it is in the direction of following out what you yourselves have said to-day—that is, forsaking the evils of the past. As to the question of future warfare in this Island, that has passed away for ever; there will be no more war; we shall not retrace our steps in that direction. What we have to do is to turn and look before us, and choose the course to follow, so that we shall be able to search out the best thing to be done for the widow and the orphan, the young and the old. The Premier and myself are between you—the Natives and the European people—and are anxious for your prosperity. We are warding off any evil that may befall you and the Native people, but it will be impossible for us to maintain this position for long. Let what is to be done be done while it is yet day. The first subject to which you should direct your remarks when addressing my friend and myself is with regard to your lands: lay down what should be done with the land, that your feet may still be able to tread upon it. That is the most important point to be discussed. Here now is a Government that you should propitiate—a Government that is looking after your welfare, and desirous of promoting your prosperity, for, whatever the Premier may say to you, effect will be given to his words. That is all I have to say at present to the people. You have explained the trouble you are suffering under with regard to those who are liable to be arrested, and it was a very proper subject to bring under the notice of my friend the Premier, for the law relating to that matter is within his grasp. I wish you all, Tuhoe, every happiness. We are not going away to-day, and you will have a little time to reflect upon what you are going to say.

Numia said,—I think it would be desirable that we should adjourn to a house, as the wind is rather high. We will go first, and will ask you to follow us.

The Premier: With pleasure.

The meeting was continued indoors.

Purewa said,—I stand up in the presence of you folks. I will first offer, before touching on other matters, my greetings to both of you. Salutations to the both of you, who are the saviours page 59 of my body and land. Salutations to you both, who may destroy my body and land. These are my greetings to you. The subject on which I have stood up to address you is one of small importance; it is in reference to the matter that a school should be established in this district. This is what I have to say in regard to the request made by Hetaraka Wakaunua. I do not consent to the school being establislaed here. The reason why I do not consent is that the Court which adjudicated upon lands at Ruatoki has not well performed its work. The title to the land has not been ascertained, and if the school is erected before this is done, it will not be known on whose land the school was erected, and it is just possible, for aught I know, that the Court, in determining the title, may determine the land on which the school is erected as belonging to Hetaraka Wakaunua, and award it to him, or some one else. Let us deal first with the question as to who are the owners of the land, and then approach the question of having a school. That is all have to say.

Numia said,—Let me first offer my greetings to you. Salutations to the leaders of the present Government! I am very glad indeed that you have come to this part of the country. In times past all that came to us was a report that you were coming. Now you have arrived amongst us, we, the tribe of Tuhoe, those who are assembled here, rejoice at your having come. The number of people about this place will be something like three hundred. Many have gone inland. Letters were sent to Whakatane asking you to come here, and pleasure was expressed in the open place this morning at your having come amongst us. We listened to what you had to say as to the reason why you came here, and your request that we should lay before you the matters which concerned us most. You also mentioned that you had travelled throughout the Island and listened to what the Natives in the different parts of the colony had to say, and you also urged upon us not to withhold from you anything we had to say to you. You urged upon us to lay now, at the present time, before you all these matters we have to touch upon. In consequence of what you have already said, it is meet, according to the usage of the people here, that I should stand up and express their views upon these points. I may mention to you that a meeting of the Tuhoe took place in March that is past, and they mentioned there their desires and views. That matter was disposed of and dealt with at the meeting held in March. That meeting began its work on the 1st of February, and continued till the 4th of March, when it concluded its business. I will now let you know what transpired at that gathering. I will lay before you what was transacted on that occasion. One matter that was determined was the territorial boundary of what land was to be surveyed under command of the Government, and internal surveys within these boundaries would not be consented to at the present time, and that searching for gold would not be agreed to by them, and that the sale of their land would not be acquiesced in by them, and the laying-off of roads through their land would not be agreed to, and that the leasing of their lands was also to be prohibited, that committees should be established, and that the duty of these committees was to deal with troubles that might arise in reference to their lands. These were the matters decided upon at that meeting. I may further explain to the Government what else took place at that meeting. The people who attended it are dwelling under the authority of the Government; they are dwelling in peace; they will not depart therefrom and take up the course followed in former times; they will pursue the road that leads to prosperity. Now, this is a separate matter I am going to speak of—that is, in regard to the land. They—I am referring to the meeting—wished to retain within their own hands the administration of the affairs relating to their lands. The lands that are already surveyed are not included in the remarks I am now making. I should explain why the meeting has taken up this position. This is the explanation I have to give: Lands that get under the control of the Government are simply squandered away; those who have possessed land become landless, they are those who are supported by the Government. I should not conceal this fact from the Government, and that is the reason why I lay this matter before you, so that you can investigate it. The people belonging to the tribe that is now before you, are, of all people in the country, the greatest strangers to European customs. Many of the ancient customs abandoned by other tribes are still held by them. Hence it is that I again express my gladness at the Premier being amongst us to-day, to bear the subjects that are being laid before him. That is all I have to say in reference to these matters. There is another point I wish to refer to, and it is in reference to what the Premier said this morning when he invited us to lay before him our grievances. This is one particular grievance we have, and it is one of the particular grievances referred to by Makarini with reference to those men who are liable to be arrested at any moment—I mean the trouble in connection with the surveys. The desire is that those people should be brought before you, and that that particular subject should be dealt with. Perhaps I should cease here in laying before the Premier the particular subjects to be dealt with by this gathering, I will return now to what Mr. Carroll said to-day. I may explain to you, my friend Mr. Carroll, that these are the particular subjects agreed to by my people—these matters already mentioned by me. They have watched what has taken place with regard to the tribes outside of us; we see that others of the Native race are now in a landless condition—that their lands have all passed away to the Government. These lands have passed away, because they desired the Government should have control of them. It is not that the Government obtained these lands unfairly from these people; hence it is that my people wish that the control of their own land should remain with themselves. I may explain to the Tuhoe the course page 60 suggested whereby prosperity and wealth may come to them. The people of Tuhoe do not agree; they think that there may be temporary prosperity, a temporary enjoyment thereof by dealing with land. You are an advocate of progress. Very good; but the people do not believe in a temporary prosperity. There is the reaction to be taken into consideration. People like myself, who are upholding the Government, are strong in our endeavours to get the people to consent to the advancement that is pointed out to us, but the bulk of the people of Tuhoe look at what has taken place in the past—they do not agree with us. They see in other parts of the country Natives struggling and passing away; they give away their land without any good coming to them. There is King Tawhiao; he is administering his affairs according to his lights. The Arawas are also looking in the direction they desire; and so it is with all the tribes—working in their own respective directions. Again, I say, Tuhoe are extremely pleased at seeing the Premier and Mr. Carroll. That is all I have to say.

The Premier: Again I speak to Tuhoe. Again I say to Tuhoe that, as head of the Government, I am pleased that they have so far put their grievances before me in such a way that I can reason with them. Though I differ with the opinions expressed, still, I am very pleased to have heard them. It is only by appealing to the better feelings of mankind, whether Natives or Europeans—by reasoning like sensible men—that we can arrive at a just conclusion in the interests of both nations; and it is by reason, and not by force, that I hope before I leave this place to prove to you that what we wish to do is in your interest. If I prove by reason, and show you in reasoning the matter out, that you are in error, then it will be wisest for you, in the interest of the race you represent, to agree to that which is reasonable, just, and fair. You tell me you had a meeting which lasted from the 1st of February to the 4th of March. At that meeting there was only one side represented. Those present were admittedly living under our laws and conforming to our laws; still, there was only one side represented. It is well that you have told me openly the conclusions that were arrived at, because I can deal separately with those conclusions, and point out to you what would be the wisest course to follow. Now, what would you say if to-morrow you had a committee doing your business, controlling your affairs, and a dispute arose, and one side only got the ear of the committee, and this committee came to a conclusion? What would you say? Those who were not represented may be the most powerful, so powerful that if they took umbrage they would say "As we were not represented we will now take by force what they did not give us an opportunity of carrying out by reason." Now, those who were not represented at your meeting, and who have as much interest—a greater interest, in fact—than those who were represented there, are here now reasoning with you to-day. This brings me to one question upon which a conclusion was arrived at, which, I have no hesitation in saying, was almost suicidal on the part of Tuhoe. They might just as well have hung themselves, cut their own throats, or flung themselves into the river; they are coming into direct conflict with what their forefathers, who were wise men, saw was to be in their interests when signing the Treaty of Waitangi. Your forefathers laid down the principle that the Government, which you acknowledge, was to see you maintained in the possession of your own lands. Now, it is impossible for the Government, of which I am the head, to still carry out, on behalf of the Queen, the Treaty of Waitangi; I say it is impossible for us to maintain you in the possession of lands belonging to you unless we know where those lands are situated. If we go back to the old state of affairs and say you can only hold your lands so long as you are powerful enough to do so, how few of the Tuhoe there are now who could hold them against the races of the world. The only protection you have got that prevents other races coming from all parts of the world and taking from you your lands is the Government. The Tuhoe have gone to the north, south, east, and west, and they have helped people against the Government; and what has been the result? Have you increased in numbers? Have your lands increased? Have you extended your boundaries? Or will you admit the truth, that you have decreased in numbers, that your land has become circumscribed, and that your position is an unfortunate one to day? If you tell the truth, you must admit that many of your fathers have been gathered to an early grave, that you have decreased in numbers, and that your position is worse to-day than in days gone by. You have to-day admitted—and I was pleased to hear it—that, if any troubles occur outside with any tribe or other people, the Tuhoe will take no part therein, but that you will from henceforth rely upon the Government doing justice to you, and seeing that what belongs to you shall be declared to be yours. After hearing that from you and those representing the tribes here to-day, there is no alternative but to say it is good, it is wise; and, if that course is followed, from to-day will date the prosperity of the Tuhoe. I am sure that the Government, as representing the Queen, and the Queen herself—and I am the mouthpiece of both—will be very pleased that the Tuhoe have come to that conclusion, and mean to faithfully adhere thereto. But what is the use of this if your protestations are only to be treated as mere words. Am I to understand that the words uttered to-day do not carry the meaning of what is intended, because the words of to-day conflict with the conclusions arrived at at the meeting held from the 1st February to the 4th March? I have said that the Government desire to protect you, and to maintain you in the possession of the lands which belong to you; but, first of all, it is necessary to page 61 know where those lands are, and each one that the land belongs to. Now, before we can ascertain where your land is, and to whom it belongs, there must be a survey outside the present land surveyed. There are people all round you who dispute, and through those disputes ill-feeling is engendered. Are we to allow you to fight and destroy each other, and simply look on while you become less and less, until you disappear altogether? Or are we to say, "As parents of all these children, we will settle those disputes; we will ascertain who the land belongs to, and give it to the rightful owners"? We prefer to take up the position not of stepfathers or stepmothers, but that of good parents loving their children, and desirous of doing that which is in their interest, and which will prosper them in this world; and in doing this we are only doing that which has in other places proved to be of great benefit to the Natives particularly, and in the interest of both races. You have told me that some of the Natives are landless—that some of them had their titles ascertained, and parted with their land. I am glad you have put that case before me to-day, and that I have listened patiently to what you said in reference thereto. Some of these Natives have dissipated their substance, and I will point out to you what has occurred on the West Coast, from New Plymouth, say, down to Wanganui. In the case of those Natives, the Government have stepped in, and, by a very strong hand, prevented them from doing away with their substance. Two years ago they received rents from their lands amounting to £2,000; last year they received £11,000. Not only that, but they still have remaining to themselves to do as they like with—to cultivate—reserves that are more than ample for them and their children—40,000 acres. Now, that was by dealing with them as kind parents; but, before we could do this, we had to ascertain what lands belonged to them. As my friend and colleague, Mr. Carroll, told you to-day, it was in the interest of yourselves that the Government should do this, so that you might be protected. But all must fall in with the general law, so that the strong power of the Government may be behind you, so as to protect you; and that strong power I am prepared to-day to offer you. You have to-day told me you respect that power, and that you have determined to uphold it. I cannot exercise that power unless I know in what direction so to do, and what belongs to you, so that I can protect you in it. Those who say they do not want the land which belongs to them to be known, only weaken their position, because it leaves it open to be said they are afraid that, on investigation, they may not be the owners; hence they prejudice their own rights; and, as Mr. Carroll also told you to-day, he and I are standing between you and others as your protectors, as a bulwark. We are standing between them and the Tuhoe, and, if the Tuhoe take up a wrong position on the other side, it is impossible we can long stand the pressure that is being brought to bear; and then, when you say to me to-day, "We do not want anything further with regard to the surveys already made, let that stand, that is outside, there is nothing further to do," all I can say to you is, I will not be responsible; and you may rest assured upon this fact: that if you maintain that position it means that wrongs are bound to accrue to the Tuhoe. It is only by getting the legal titles to that which belongs to you that the Government will be able to afford you protection. A legal title is in your favour, and cannot be disputed. In all countries now great changes are taking place, and in all countries where men and women live they must know definitely who are the owners of the land, and must have a legal title for those who own it. Now, in doing that, we do not desire in any way to take from you your rights, or to take from you your land, but the New Zealand Parliament has said by law, and the Queen who governs us all—you are her children as much as I am—has said, "We must ascertain the titles to all lands." It is here in the book. Under section 13 of the Native Land Purchase and Acquisition Act the following words are there enacted: "With respect to Native land, the Government may ask the Native Land Court to ascertain the titles thereto, and the Court may thereupon proceed so to do." Now, this is done to prevent one party who might want to take the land from the other without making application for it to be surveyed. Under the law as it now stands he cannot do that, but must apply to have it surveyed, and then it will come before the Court, and the Court will decide whose land it is. The Queen, who is the parent of all, has got this Act passed so that both parties may have fair-play. Now, I do not think that, at the meeting you held from the 1st February to the 4th March, those who came to the conclusions you have mentioned were aware that the Government, in the interest of the Native race, had asked Parliament to make this law. Had they known that this law existed they would perhaps have come to a different conclusion. Hence, I say, both sides should have been represented. Now, we will throw aside altogether any mystery or mystification, and I will say at once, I know one reason why the meeting decided to have no further surveys. It was because they were afraid that those who applied for them would be getting an advantage over the others, and they said, "We will have no surveys at all." Now, as I said to-day, wipe the past off the slate, and, as my colleague Mr. Carroll said, make a fresh start. I am here to-day to see a clean slate: wipe the conclusions arrived at at the meeting from the 1st February to the 4th March from off it. Make a fresh start from to-day, and we will see that no one gets an advantage over the other. The Queen will see the right people get the land, and I say so on the part of the Government. The impression that has been formed has, I know, done a great deal in passing these resolutions; they were passed in page 62 ignorance of the law and the intentions of the Government. Hence, I say again, wipe out what was done at that meeting, and go on the lines others are going, so that your future, and the future of your children, may be preserved in peace and happiness. You may fear that, in these particular surveys, wrong may be done you. In that respect the Government will be responsible, and see that the persons who make those surveys are men that the Government can rely upon, and who will not do injustice to any one. The Government will see that the expenses incurred are not such as shall eat up the land, but the work shall be done at the lowest possible cost. The Government have no interest in wronging those who come under their protection, but have every desire to see that your interests are conserved. We are not here to destroy; we are here to build up and preserve. I now come to the question of the Courts that have to decide these questions for survey. I am prepared to bring the Court here, to this particular spot, in this very building, so as to save expense, and keep you here amongst yourselves, so that, whilst having your rights adjusted, you shall not be driven to other places, put to expense, and made to suffer the evils you do in the towns. If that had been done in the past many evils which the Natives have suffered would never have occurred. Again I say that, with these privileges granted you, those who do not desire to have the surveys made or have their titles ascertained are afraid. And if they are not afraid, then they are doing themselves an incalculable wrong, because they are weakening their position. The next question is as to the sale of the lands. As the law stands, the Natives are not compelled to sell their lands; they can lease them, and avoid selling. When the titles are ascertained, a majority of the owners can decide, after election, in what way they will deal with the lands; and the prices upon which the lands are to be leased is agreed upon by a Board on which the Natives themselves have fair representation. In making these provisions the Parliament has decided that if you want to have committees of advice comprised of the owners you can have these committees. You can all meet in a room like this—all the owners, and a majority can decide what you will do. If you say, "We will sell," the Government will say, "Very well." If you say "No; we will lease to the Government," well and good. If two-thirds of a majority say, "We want this land submitted to public auction and get the best possible price for selling or leasing," then the law says, "If you prefer that, you can do so"—that is, if you prefer it to dealing with the Government. And after doing this the Government has also conserved your rights, because, as stated to me, you have said there are many who have disposed of their lands who are now landless and penniless. Now, we have made provision to stop that. I admit that Natives have taken moneys in other places for their lands, and have squandered that money. But we have made provision against that, because we have said, instead of getting the money so as to squander it, we give part in cash and part in debentures. These debentures bear interest, and you draw the interest every year as long as you live, and your children who come after you. That is better than allowing the land to be idle. The interest on these debentures can only be paid to the owners of the land, and no one else. By the principle upon which the land is either sold or leased, neither you nor your children who come after you can ever be penniless or in want; and even though you become bankrupt, owe money, or a judgment is given against you, that money is not transferable, is not attachable, and can only be paid to the owner and the one who had an interest in the land. It always belongs to the owner of the land and his children for all time. Now, as you will see, if these facts were known, if this had been known at the time of that meeting held in February and March, you would never have come to the conclusions you did. I have told you of the dangers that surround you. So long as you remain doing what you are doing you will have all these people coming in by-and-by, and when the time comes great trouble will overtake you, and people will claim land who never had any land at all. All the others are getting the titles to their land ascertained—getting all the advantages we offer them; and by-and-by you will suffer if you do not come to reason and sense, and get your titles ascertained, the same as other people. Now, I told you at the start that we did not want to force anything, but simply to warn you of a great danger that threatens you, and that we are prepared, by legislation, to protect you; and it remains for you to protect yourselves, and take advantage of it. To those who have dealt with the Government under recent laws, and those who come to the Government under this law, I say they will never be landless—never be without money, food, or clothes. They will be more prosperous than Tuhoe have been since they have been Tuhoe. There is still a sufficient remnant of your tribe from which may be built a good and great people, and I have indicated to you the foundation upon which that great people can be built. You mentioned about Tawhiao and other Natives—that they were following upon lines of their own. Have those people profited who went under Tawhiao? Has he profited? What are his people? They are landless. They have no friends. When I met them on the Waikato they asked me to give back land that had been given for school purposes—such is their necessity—and it is those who have joined them, and who are landless and penniless—those who would not allow the wishes of their forefathers and the Queen to protect them—it is those people who are landless to-day in New Zealand. Every step taken by those who opposed the wishes of their forefathers, who signed the Treaty of Waitangi—every departure from that treaty—has been a page 63 step taken to destruction. It has been a step taken towards poverty, degradation, and want; and the noble race ought to have been, and would have been, three times—nay, ten times—the number in this colony had they followed the right steps of their forefathers, and the Tuhoe would not have been the remnant that I see, but would have been a great and powerful people; and this place—the whole of this land—would not have held the people to have listened to the Premier. Avert this evil upon Tuhoe before it is too late. Let me tell you this, first of all; The surveys must proceed under the Government direction, and by men who will be responsible solely to the Government—by men who will not favour one side or the other, but who will be just to every one; and the expense shall be as low as it is possible to make it, so that the land shall be left for those to whom it belongs. The expense of the Courts must be reduced as low as we can possibly make it. Then, we must have a Judge—one holding the highest position—one in whom every one, both Native and European, will repose the greatest confidence. He will see that everything is fair and just to all concerned. When this is done, then you will have the protection of the Government. You will have protection against the world; and what belongs to you you will retain and be able to do with it as your own, and do with it so that your wives and children will profit thereby. You mentioned to-day about the site for a school. One asked that a school should be established. Another objected thereto, because the title to the land upon which it was to be built was not ascertained. Shall there be a school here for Tuhoe? One objects and another objects because the titles to the land have not been ascertained. In the meantime, the children are growing up in ignorance, and growing up in that ignorance which is against their after life, and, unless the children are educated, those who are quarrelling about who the land is to belong to are taking the bread, the breath, and the very means of living from their offspring; that is what they are doing. One is not the whole tribe. If Tuhoe says, we want the school, put the school there, who is going to dispute it? What matters it if one man disputes? What does it matter so long as the children are educated, and can make a living in this world? The great power of to-day is education. The pakeha sees that power; so do the Natives in other parts, because they give their children an education. Therefore, I say, have the school, and get your children educated. You have intellect, are strong physically, for you have proved it in times gone by, and why should you be kept behind when the Government is prepared to educate your children? Therefore, before I leave here, think well over this as I have now put it to you, and say, before I leave, "We want the school, and the land will be there for it." The school will be vested in Tuhoe. There will be a committee of yourselves, you will have controlling power, and it will be in your interest to have a school. The day is still long, there is still time, and I want you to commemorate this day so that my colleague and myself can go back and say, "Tuhoe wants education for her children," and if you do that I tell you you are doing what is right, not only for to-day, but for all time; but if you keep your children in ignorance they will curse you. I have by these few words only replied to the questions submitted. I should have something further to say, but I want you now, if you can, to reply to the arguments I have used in favour of what Parliament has done, and what the Government say is in your interest.

Hon. Mr. Carroll said,—I am just going to speak in reference to certain remarks made by my colleague. You have explained to the Premier the particular matters that were disposed of at your meeting, and the Premier has laid before you what has taken place in Parliament. The views of both parties are now laid down. Let us look quietly into them. The first point was that the boundary of Tuhoe's land was to remain under the control of a committee, and the Premier asked, "Where is that boundary ? how was that boundary to be ascertained? how was that boundary to be controlled? who was to be controlled? under what law—under the ancient laws of your people, or under the control of the law's of the colony?" Was that boundary to be preserved in accordance with the Treaty of Waitangi, assented to by the Queen? That treaty laid down the law that the rights of the Maoris to their land were to be secured. It is only by the law that the rights of individuals can be secured to them. You are not in a position to say the land is yours simply because you are in possession of it. We know the ownership is disputed, as in the case of the Ngatimanawa, who contest your right. Your mere assertion of ownership does not entitle you to the land. That is the reason why the Premier has laid it down that you should appeal to the law and get the law to determine the boundary of your land. Distinctly understand that the Government has this in its own hands—the power to complete the survey. Under the laws the Government can, in its own way, make a topographical survey. The Government wish the law to be carried out step by step in regard to Tuhoe, and hope that they will follow the right course. The survey, if carried on by the Government, would not be an expensive undertaking, and if a topographical survey is to be undertaken by the Government the owners may be fixed upon and the title to the land ascertained. It is quite true, that with the increasing population the country requires necessary steps to be taken with regard to the lands. There is but one thing, and one thing alone, that can preserve you, and that is, to go to the Government and the law. Do you yourselves give this matter your consideration; What results from the boundary you are claiming as the boundary of your land? Does any advantage result to you at all? How is it page 64 you are not able to get employment from the Europeans? Is it not because you allow your land to lie in idleness and be unproductive? It is not that the Government has any desire on its part to take possession of your land. What the Government wishes is to see you firmly established upon your own property. The means by which this can be done cannot be reached by Maori committees, because the committees are not supported by the law. The only committee that can firmly establish you in the possession is the ture—i.e., the Native Land Court. If there is anything that injuriously affects you in connection with the Native Land Court, let it be pointed out so that it may be remedied. I know that there is an anxious feeling among the Natives throughout the colony in regard to their lands, but let the cause of the anxiety be so held up to view that it may be plainly seen by the Government, and then the Government will be in a position to see the wrongs that need to be redressed. My colleague has said that the evils of the past should be wiped away. He also said let us now take a new departure. In the new law that has been clearly explained to you no injury can befall you. If you wish to rent or lease, a majority of yourselves will decide. If you wish, a committee can be appointed to do that. Also, if you desire, the Government will act as your bankers. You can deposit your money with the Government, who will take charge of it, and pay you interest, so that you can always depend on receiving it regularly, and there will be something left for the support of your offspring when you are gone. But all these things can only be done by acting in conformity with the law. That is the only point of difference between you and me. You think these things can be done by your own Maori laws. I say they cannot be done in that way. They must be done according to the laws of the Parliament. You are seeking for prosperity for yourselves, and for your land to be successfully employed. The. Government are also seeking out the course whereby you yourselves may become prosperous and your land made valuable. Your anxiety is lest your lands may be dealt with wrongly. Who will deal improperly with your lands? If you think it is the Government who will deal wrongly with you, I tell you the Government will do no such thing. If it be this, that you are afraid private individuals may act or deal wrongly with you, I tell you the Government will not give them an opportunity to do so; the law will provide against that. The Government has decided that they will not allow private individuals to interfere with the Natives. If there is a dispute amongst yourselves the Court will determine the ownership according to your own customs. What is it, then, that you are really afraid of? Perhaps it is that you are really afraid of yourselves. Some seem to be afraid of the Court, others of the survey. Perhaps you are afraid the land may pass away from you altogether. Hence it is, perhaps, that you came to the resolutions arrived at at your late meeting. If these are the causes of your anxiety, what I have to say to you is: Attach yourselves at once to the Government. The Government will be as a parent protecting each and every child. The Government can deal with your lands if you have had them surveyed and the titles determined. If you act in a contrary direction, you will yourselves be responsible for what befalls you. I will repeat what I have already said: Will you point out what evil results from surveys. If you think that the expenses attending the surveys will absorb a great deal of the land, I tell you, as I have already said, that these expenses shall be lightened. The cost of having the land brought before the Court will also be made much lighter. Do not be blind, deaf, or forgetful of the fact that we are living in an age of progress, and live with the spirit of the age. It is not as if you were a people living under great tribulation or difficulty. This illustration as to the Europeans swarming into the country is quite correct. Another matter referred to was that you object to roads going through your lands. What is the objection to having roads? If the roads were only for the Europeans there might be some reason in your objection, but do not you yourselves use the roads equally with the Europeans? If the roads were absorbing all the land it might be wrong. If the construction of roads resulted in your power over your lands being taken from you there might be some sense in the objection. But what is seen in reference to the roads is that highways are given to the people. Natives and Europeans alike, by which travelling from one part of the country to another is greatly simplified. But the question of roads is not really the main point to be discussed. The two main points settled at your meeting were in regard to the lands and the committees. Now, with respect to the proceedings at this meeting, all that has been said by both parties will be laid before the Government, and placed before Parliament. Therefore you should give your careful consideration to all that has been said to you to-day by the Premier. We know that you are living in an isolated position, and are not as well informed as many of the tribes living in other parts of the colony. Hence it is that you should carefully weigh and ponder well over what has been said to you. Do not let the utterances of today be cast aside when we have gone away. Think well over what has been said, and give every point your earnest consideration. These are the words I have to say to you, O Tuhoe! Look carefully into what has already been said to you, carefully weigh it all, and it may be possible that a happy union of both parties will take place that will prove a source of happiness, prosperity, and delight to you hereafter. Let not what has been said to-day be rejected. I say emphatically to you that, if what has taken place to day be not heeded, the voice may turn away in a different direction. Other things may be done in another place. Whatever happens, the work in that other page 65 place proceeds. Therefore, then, I say, give every attention and consideration to what has been said to-day. I am not asking you to give a decided answer at once; give the matter every possible consideration. You will have means to communicate with the Government if you so desire. You know where the post-office is; you know where to write to. The Government have offered every facility to you. They have come to meet you hero to-day at your own place, and at your own home. You have the post-office, telegraph-office, and every means of communicating with them. If it should so happen that these important matters cannot be dealt with by letter, what is to hinder you from coming in person to Wellington and seeing the Government. Parliament meets in the month of June, and this is the time you should lay down the lines upon which you intend to act. Should you arrive at a definite conclusion, it will be for you to send someone to represent you, and to express your views to the Government. Now, the Government in power is able, capable, and has the strength to do a great deal of good if you come to an unanimous decision, and fall in with their views. Effect will be given to that decision. Now that we have met here all together, and come to this place, my Government's desire is that we will be able to do some good and effective work. That is why I have listened with pleasure to the Tuhoe. All I now say is, Give every consideration to what has beeen said. Gather together all these things that have been said, that birth may be given to some new thoughts that will result in advantage to the Native race and the colony. That is all I have to say after what has fallen from my colleague the Premier. I have just run over what the Premier had already referred to, and all I have to say in conclusion is. Give careful consideration to what has been said.

Numia said,—I wish to express my pleasure to you both for having placed so clearly before us the proceedings as carried on by the Europeans. We have shown to you what the Maoris have done, acting according to their own lights, and you too have explained to us the extravagance of the resolutions come to, and have explained to us the laws. That is the reason why I show so forcibly to you what we have done, acting according to our own way; and in view of having these matters carried out, I thought I would put you in possession thereof. Looking at the Native Land Court work I found the first thing to be done was to have a survey made, and in consequence of this survey the owners of the land had no money. Then a portion of the land would be taken by the Government to pay for the survey. After that the Native Land Court would sit, and when it sat the Natives had not the money wherewith to carry on the hearing, and then the land passed away to those who had money. What followed next was the issue of the Crown grant to the land. Then, when this was done, the owners began to sell, and those who parted with their land became landless; but they sold their land in carrying out their own selfish desire, and the fault was their own. Then, the taxes had to be paid on account of the land; and it is in consequence of all these things that Tuhoe desires that their land should not be sold. It would be the same if I were to explain in regard to the roads, gold-prospecting, and other matters. It is from the ignorant people that those evils come. Those possessing knowledge will not be favourable to this. I lave heard what the Premier has said with regard to lightening the burdens falling upon us through the Court, and with regard to the surveys. I am greatly pleased indeed to hear these words. It is owing to no other reason that Tuhoe has taken up this negative action. It is only through the evils worked by the Native Land Court and the expense of the surveys. With regard to the outside tribes, they are also contending for these lands; and the contention is also going on with Tuhoe. Let me make clear what I said with regard to the committee, because the Tuhoe want the committee to investigate the difficulties that exist among them. I wish again to express my pleasure at what the Premier has said, making it so clear to us what the action of the Government is. Perhaps I should say now that we will take the remainder of the day to turn matters over in our minds, and the tribe will be represented at Wellington when Parliament assembles. Now, with respect to what the Premier has said about a school. That matter will be determined at once. We should just like an hour to give the matter consideration, and then we will reply to the Premier.

The Premier: I am very pleased indeed to hear that you are going to come to a definite conclusion. Speaking of those who have grievances, he continued: I wish to refer to those of your number for whom warrants for arrest have been issued, but I will discuss the matter with Mr. Carroll while you are considering the question of a school. Probably we shall come to a decision in the interest of all concerned. I did not mention anything about prospecting for gold, but will say something to you definitely about that later, because we do not want to disturb that subject. We do not want to do anything in that respect. There is also another subject I intend to say something about. I have heard words here which, I am sure, will give great pleasure to His Excellency the Governor and Her Majesty the Queen. I had the assurance of the chiefs that they desired for the future to work in harmony with and obey Her Majesty's laws. Now, there is something which you generally see floating over every place where they have admitted the sovereignty of the Queen, and expressed their good wishes as good people and good children to her. You of times see it floating over them, for it is their great protection. It is a flag, and is the emblem of freedom wherever it floats. If that flag floated here in this particular spot it would be page 66 to the world a sign that from this time forward we are to be as one people—Native and European alike—and all claiming the protection of the British flag. Now, I think I have said sufficient to indicate to you what my answer would be if Tuhoe would express to me here to-day a wish to have a school, and when it comes, then let the flag float there. I speak on behalf of the Government, and I think we shall be in a position to help you. I desire to know your wishes when you have consulted amongst yourselves. I will say nothing further now. We will meet again in an hour's time, and then, I think, we shall be able to finish these small subjects, leaving the larger questions for consideration later on, when I shall probably receive your answer from those who are sent to Wellington to represent you. And I will tell you more than that. The want of means shall not prevent you coming to Wellington and seeing me there. I think it is only right that Her Majesty's subjects living in isolated places should be brought more together.

Kereru said,—I would be glad if you would carry out that remark of yours in respect to having the Court here. Bring it to this house. I am very pleased you have made that suggestion. If the Court is held elsewhere only a few people could get to it; but if it is held here all parties could go to it. I wish you now to give an assurance that the Court will be held here. I said I had very little to say, and I have said it. That is all.

The Premier: I have long seen the evils that have resulted from the Natives being brought long distances from their homes, and having to take their families with them into the towns, and evils have resulted which have been a curse to their families ever afterwards. I have seen the men drinking their substance, actually "swallowing their land." I have seen their wives and daughters defiled in these large cities, and the evil arises through their being there with temptation surrounding them. I have always said that that was a wrong that should not be perpetrated on the Natives. When dealing with matters affecting the pakehas, wherever the majority of the Europeans are their convenience is always consulted, and the Courts are placed accordingly; and if we therefore think it is just and right and in the interest of the Europeans that their convenience should be consulted, then I say we should follow out the same course with regard to the Natives, and do equal justice to them. And I believe it will be right and proper that the evils of the past in that respect should cease once and for ever. And believing that to be the case, even though we may have to go to some expense in making a convenient place for the Court to sit, and where the Judge may reside, that expense would be more than justified if we are doing it in the interests of both races; and I now give my word that the Court shall come here convenient to this place, so that the titles may be ascertained, and that it may be proof at once that we are sincere in what we have said to the Natives. And I feel satisfied that in doing this I am doing that which is in the interest of the owners of the land, and only what is just to all concerned. We shall have to go into the question of detail as to what convenience is wanting. People may have to come from far. At the same time, however, we trust that their convenience will be consulted by the Natives who are here; and, in making this request on behalf of Tuhoe, I know Tuhoe will do that, and will assist the Government in what they are doing. Some people will object, and say it is too far away, and it is not safe to come here. Everything will be done in the interest of the colony. You speak on behalf of Tuhoe, I speak on behalf of the Government; and I say the Court shall come here, and I feel sure good will result to all concerned.

On resuming after lunch, Hetaraka said,—I wish to explain with regard to the subject I have brought before you. I am speaking with reference to what Mr. Carroll said at the close of his address a little while ago—that we should consider the subjects he and his colleague had brought before us. That observation of Mr. Carroll's was generally assented to. This is what I have to say to the Premier and Mr. Carroll with regard to internal surveys and other minor matters. The Ngatimanawa and Ngatiawa wish matters in reference to the Witi Block and the Patuheuheu Hapu, and also Tutakangahau, to remain in abeyance. It has been decided amongst us that the question relating to the surveys should be held over, and cease until such time as we can interview the Government in Wellington. This is what I have to say to the Premier and his colleagues; that these surveys should not proceed until we have had an opportunity of interviewing the Government in Wellington. By that time the thoughts of Tuhoe with regard to the surveys will be known. These surveys are all within the external boundary of the land of Tuhoe. That is the reason why I want this matter held over.

Purewa said,—It was arranged that an hour should be left so that we could consider over the matter you submitted to us, and while you had an hour to consider the points we had raised. We have considered the matter in reference to the school, and have decided as to that particular subject. You have heard what Hetaraka said to-day; and what I say is, We are not prepared to go on with the school. This is in reply to what was said, that the question of a school should proceed. The tribe have consented to the establishment of a school, but in this way: Let the titles to the Ruatoki Block be first ascertained and determined, then let us have the school. That is the reply we have to make with regard to the school. Let the titles be first determined, and then we will agree to the school.

Hetaraka said,—The reason why I speak again upon this subject is because I was the one who laid the matter before the Minister. I am most anxious that the school should be established, not page 67 for the sake of my children, but for the children of us all. You have heard what the others have said on the subject, and I will explain to you the reason why I take up the position I do. This is the third year that myself, Numia, and others have been solicitous that a school should be established in the district. It is in consequence of dissension amongst us that Numia and myself have been unable to have a school. The reason why we have both been so anxious that the school should be put up is because we know the rising generation are growing up in the same state of ignorance that their fathers were in. It is for that reason we urge upon you to let us have a school, so that the children now growing up may not grow up in ignorance. Now, with regard to what Purewa says—that we should not have the school until the titles are determined—I would ask, Who are the owners of the land? Irrespective of the owners of the land, the school would be for all the owners of the Tuhoe Tribe. Numia and myself have, during three years past, also thought of waiting until the titles of the land were ascertained before having the school erected, but we came to the conclusion that we might have to wait too long, and that the erection of the school should be proceeded with at once.

Tutakangahau said,—Now, with respect to what has just been said, the request for the school is from us. You, the Premier, are the light of the world, therefore it is that I appeal to you to determine this matter. If you say that the school should not be put up until the titles to the land are ascertained, very well. If you say the school should be erected forthwith, it is well. That is all I have to say on that subject, because the matter is in your hands. I will now direct my observations to something else that has fallen from Hetaraka. He and I have made the first application for a survey. We have already placed it in the hands of the Chief Surveyor. That is the reason why I think that the question of surveys should be held over until we visit Wellington. The probabilities are that the Surveyor-General will know about the applications that we forwarded to him. They were forwarded from five hapus. Perhaps there were about thirty people who signed these applications for survey, so that if certain of the hapus should move in the matter the Premier will permit it to be held over. We will interview you about this thing, and you will have it in your hands, because this particular matter is a grievance to us, and will be brought before the great House of Parliament, where there are people who can seek out what is good and what is evil affecting the people of their country. It is not that I am objecting to the surveys. No; it is that the chiefs of Tuhoe may be able to proceed in a definite manner in respect to this business.

Purewa: I wish to explain something with reference to what Hetaraka has said in regard to his application to a former Minister about a school. I was the one who stopped that work. The second application was made by Numia, and I also was the one who stopped it. This is the third time the question of a school has come up, the application now made to you. I again stopped the work.

Mr. Carroll: I am going to speak in reference to this matter of the school. What has been said in regard thereto is perfectly clear. You agree to the school being put up after the land is put through the Court. It will be for the Minister to reply to that. Discussion or dissension now is mere waste of time.

The Premier: Coming to the question of a school, you have not known me very long, you have not been with me very long, but I think you will have come to the conclusion that any matter I speak upon or deal with I only do so after giving it the fullest consideration. I therefore strongly recommend you to leave this matter of a school to the Government and myself. Sometimes, when friends cannot agree, and an impartial person is called in to act between the parties, he can very soon settle any difficulty, and both are satisfied. Now, are you agreed that there is to be a school here? (Cries of "Yes, yes," and loud applause.) That reply gladdens my heart, because I can now see the light is dawning upon you. The only question then that remains is, When is the school to go up? One says, "Let it go up at once," and the other says, "Let it go up when the block is through the Court." Now, can any one of you, at any time, stop the growth of the children who want education? Can you give them back three years of their lives? The life goes on still, just the same as the sun and the moon continue to move. The sun rises and sets; the moon comes and goes. Can any of you stop them? Can he who objected to the school three years ago give back the lives to those children who still remain in ignorance? Can he give three years of life to his own children, let alone the lives of other peoples' children? The answer is, No, he cannot do it; it is beyond his power. Therefore, why should any one injure other peoples' children? He can keep his own at home; but why should he prevent other persons' children from going to school? If a school was opened to-morrow, the Government would not send a policeman here to make all the children go to school. Let those parents who want to keep their children in ignorance, and slaves to others through their want of education, keep them so. With the great advance that the world is making, the rapid strides that are being made, and the developments that are taking place, if you do not give your children an education they will be the slaves of those who have education, and the parents will be to blame for this. Now, those who object, and only want the school to go up after the Ruatoki Block has been put through the Court and the titles determined—to those I would say: Suppose this block took twelve mouths in passing page 68 through the Land Court. There may be disputes, hearings, rehearings, and further hearings. Why should the children be punished by lack of education because the people cannot agree as to who owns the land? With all civilized nations, even the most ignorant people on the face of the globe, at all events, never punish the innocent because of the guilty. Why the children here should be kept in darkness, why their days should be darkened for all time, why they should suffer owing to a dispute about a particular piece of land, is to me a perfect mystery. I cannot understand it. If these men who object had had the advantages of education in early life they would both have been better men to-day. I know that to be the case, and I know that they both mean well; but no one who objects to the school in his heart means well to these little ones. Does he want to punish the children? [A voice: He does not.] I am glad to hear that answer. I know you are in earnest. Your voice has the ring of sincerity in it. Therefore, not wishing to do it, are you prepared to leave this question to the Government, and if we see that this dispute about the land is going to be settled in a short time, we will go on with the school? But if it is going to last much longer, are these unfortunate children going to be punished? My words to-day are words of peace and kindness. I do not want you to decide anything to-day but this question of the school, but I want you to weigh well everything that has been said, come to a decision, and let things progress. I want to get your confidence so that you may leave this matter for me to decide. That being so, you may all rest assured that the one thing that will weigh with me will be the future welfare of your children. My object is to assist and help those little ones whom you love so well. You told me to-day you looked upon Die as your parent. I like that; and, as children are ever dear to their parents, so are you all to me, and in the interest of those children—being a parent to them—it is my duty to look after them; and I would not be doing this if I did not see that the benefits accruing from education were given to them. In the bright future that is in store for the Tuhoe you will want carpenters, you will want youths trained to important trades, young men who have had experience such as will benefit you by their skill and knowledge. In your altered circumstances, and with brighter prospects in store for you, you will want them in the fertilising of your soils and that they may improve cultivation; and they can only do this by your giving them education. This is one of the things above all other considerations which weighs with me when I say your children must be educated, in your interests as well as their own. You have now left the matter for me to decide, and I am sure that the decision I shall give later on will satisfy both the objectors and those who are asking for the school. With regard to the question that there should be no more surveys outside the internal boundary, and in which you say other tribes outside are interested, you ask me to see that this is carried into effect. I have told you once before to-day that people who come to a decision upon a matter in which other people are concerned without in any way consulting them make a great mistake. They do more—they do them a wrong. Then, why should I come to a decision here to-day, and give you an answer, without first going through the other districts, where I shall have an opportunity of meeting the other people. They would say to me, "If you are our father, we are your children, just as much as the Tuhoe are; why should you come to a decision without consulting us?" You have said, "Put off doing anything in relation to these surveys until we come to Wellington." Suppose you never come to Wellington, then I suppose it is to be put off for ever? Now, perhaps these other people may want to come to Wellington, too. You might come to some arrangement amongst yourselves. I must give them the same chance as I give you. I must act fairly towards both parties. I have heard all that you have had to say, and after hearing what all the others have to say I will come to a decision. I will do nothing rashly, for rashness leads to disaster. I will, therefore, leave that question open. I have made no promise, mark you, because I cannot make a pledge until I have heard all concerned. But I have told you this, that in case anything is done you shall have full knowledge thereof, and it will be in accordance with my words to you to-day, that past grievances with regard to expense in dealing with your lands and other evils that have sprung up shall be avoided. My colleague has told you to-day that the Surveyor-General is having maps prepared so as to have the colony mapped throughout. It is for scientific purposes these topographical surveys are necessary, and it may be necessary to make them in your country, so that in mapping off the colony your country may appear on our plans. Now, topographical surveys are surveys wanted for scientific purposes. They do not cost the owners of the land anything. But if a complete survey is subsequently decided on, then there is so much expense saved, for these topographical surveys can be used ultimately for the purpose of subdividing the land. Whatever may be done with regard to topographical surveys, nothing will be done with respect to surveys in detail until I have consulted all the parties interested. Now, as I have heard you to-day, I think you will all admit it is only fair that I should listen to the words of the other people interested. I think you will agree with me that that is a fair thing to do. I have just a few words of advice I wish to give you, and I wish you to weigh them well. My words are these: When the titles to the land are being ascertained, do not fly at each other's throats like mortal enemies, determined to take the lives of each other—the one determined to wrong the other—but assist us as far as you can; meet amongst page 69 yourselves; appoint arbitrators—a committee, if you like; search out and ascertain amongst yourselves as to the interests in and titles to the land. If you do that, you will save yourselves expense, and will not create any ill-feeling. If you persevere in that, you will get the land amongst you; but if, on the other hand, you go quarrelling and fighting like mortal enemies, you will lose the land; the lawyers' fees and the expenses will swell up, and you will get nothing. These words, you will find, are for your benefit. If you will only follow this advice, it will save expense and ill-feeling, and it will preserve the land to those to whom it belongs. That is why I said to-day I would study your convenience and bring the Court right up to Ruatoki. I shall watch carefully from time to time and see how 'you are progressing, and if I can be of any service you can rest assured that service will be cheerfully rendered, because I do not desire to see the land frittered away in expenses. I do not want to see any ill-feeling engendered, and I do not want to see the land go from the people who are entitled to it. I want to see every man get his land, go upon it with his wife and children and cultivate it, and to know it is their own land they are improving. There is no man who feels so happy as the man who is upon his own land, cultivating it, and making it productive, so that his wife and children may live comfortably on it; and the sooner one and all of you know what is your own, the better it will be for you, the better for the Europeans, and the colony generally. Now, you have mentioned to-day—and I have heard remarks also relative to it—that there was gold and silver on the land you claimed. I have been told by a scientist that there are rivers and gold in the moon, yet the Government have never sent any one up to it to prospect for them, and the Government are not going to send anybody to prospect on your land. But whatever you do towards ascertaining the titles to your land will not put the gold there, and if it is there it will not take it away. Therefore, until this larger question is settled as to the ownership of the land and ascertaining the titles, the other matter must be left in abeyance; the Government will not interfere. So you do not require to have any anxiety upon that account. The last question I have to touch upon is a matter which was brought under my notice to-day, and that is in regard to those people who broke the law on a former occasion, and for whose arrest warrants have been issued. If I was to take up a position such as my friend on the right did in regard to the school, and said "Taihoa! taihoa!" (Wait, wait) you would be grieved, would you not? In the case of these men it is worse, for they are not free to go where they like. They might be required to attend the Court to give evidence as to titles, and if they went to Whakatane they might not come back; and yet, if their evidence was not given, it might do a wrong to the people who owned the land. I will explain to you the law. In the first place, the law is beyond the Government; it is beyond myself. If any one breaks the law, the Government cannot stop the law taking its course, and the law is there just as much for the Natives as for the Europeans. Any one who breaks that law—no matter what race he belongs to—that law says he must be dealt with as by it defined. You asked me whether I could withdraw these warrants. I cannot do so. The Governor—aye, even the Queen herself—could not withdraw those warrants; but when once the persons who are wrongdoers have been brought before the Court, then the Queen or the Governor, upon the advice of his Ministers, could say, "Taihoa, it is enough, the law has been sufficiently vindicated, the trouble is over." I believe, myself, from what I have seen and from what has taken place, that the trouble is all over. On my return to Wellington, I will look into the matter carefully and see what can be done. I think the course to be pursued will be that these people must surrender themselves to the authorities and go before the Court, and the Court, or whoever appears for the Crown, would make a statement as to the wishes of the Crown in respect to the cases. Then, after that, the prerogative of the Crown, through the Governor, can be exercised by simply saying they had been sufficiently punished, that they had promised there should be no further breaches of the law, that Tuhoe had told me that for the future they were going to be with us and obey our laws, no matter what other tribes did. I would then recommend the Governor to grant the clemency of the Crown. Now, who may I communicate with after I have looked into this matter in Wellington? Who shall I send the communication to advising what course is to be pursued?

The Natives: To Makirini.

The Premier: Very well; that is good; that is the only course that is open. Now, I told you earlier in the afternoon that in other places the people had a flag. Since I have been Minister for the Natives I have made a present of the flag of our Queen and country. Now, when I hear through one of your chiefs, or from those who come to meet the Government in Wellington, that you have put up a flagstaff, I will, on the part of the Government, find you a flag to put there, and that fact will speak to the outside world against anything else; it will remove that reproach that has been cast upon the Tuhoe that they were never friendly—always against the Government, and against our laws. You have to-day given me words; you have passed your words to me; you have told me to-day that from this time forward you will be loyal subjects of the Queen, and obey her law. You have given me words that have pleased me. When we met this morning we were a long distance apart, but we have been getting closer and closer until we are now here all together. All reservation has gone, the mist has been cleared away, and I am overjoyed to think that such is page 70 the case. When Sir Donald McLean came amongst you he was your friend, he advised you wisely. I have been amongst you to-day, and I do not regret it. It has been a day well spent in the interests of both races, and I thank you very heartily on behalf of the Government for the welcome you have accorded to us, and for the confidence you have given us in letting me know your minds. If any trouble arises in the future, and you feel a doubt in your minds, do not hesitate a moment. If you cannot telegraph, send some one down to me, so that I can dispel the trouble as the sun dispels the mist that sometimes comes on your mountain-tops. Men, women, and children of Tuhoe, I conclude by giving you kind and friendly greeting, and I say good-bye. (Loud cheering).

At the conclusion of the meeting the chief Kereru presented the Premier with his taiaha, which the chief said was an earnest that there was to be peace for the future, and that the Tuhoe intended to be with the Government and obey the laws. The taiaha once belonged to the ancestor who formerly owned the Ruatoki Block, and it is called Rongokaeke after him. The claims to the block will be founded on this ancestor. The flagstaff the tribe are going to put up will bear the same name as this taiaha, as also the large house now in the course of erection. The fact of the old chief, the head of his tribe, handing over to the Premier the sceptre of that tribe is in itself very significant. No better proof of the earnest wish of the tribe to conform to the laws of the Queen could possibly be given. From a Maori point of view such a gift means perfect submission, and is symbolical of an intention to abandon all unfriendliness and to live in peace in the future.

The chief Kereru informed the Premier that his nephew would accompany him right through the country, so that he might see him safe to his journey's end. He said, "There is the country; you are free to go where you like and do what you like. My nephew shall accompany you, and see you safe to your journey's end, and then return."