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The Pamphlet Collection of Sir Robert Stout: Volume 80a

Waimate

Waimate.

The Premier and party left Kawakawa for Waimate with the intention of holding a large meeting there. On arrival at Waimate, the Natives stated to the Premier that they had only a few local matters to bring before him there, and would reserve all their larger questions relating to their grievances to be discussed at Waima on the following Monday. As he was there, they would, however, bring a few local matters under his notice.

Hare Matenga said they were very pleased indeed to see the Premier and to welcome him. One of the greatest grievances they had was the dog-tax. It is not that they wished to evade the tax in any way. They had all agreed there to pay that tax; in fact, they did not wish to evade any laws at all. All their prayer was that the price should be reduced from 5s. to 2s. 6d. per year. They sent a petition to the County Council last month to this effect—that they agreed to pay the dog-tax. In 1892 there were advertisements out saying that the place to get the collars was at Kawakawa and Russell. They went like men and got the collars at those distant places. In 1893 the County Council said they could get the collars at the telegraph-office. They all went there and got the collars, and that is where they still get them. Some had paid and some had not paid. He had already said that the petition set forth that they did not wish to evade the law, but simply wished to have the tax reduced. The petition was worded in this way;—If the police took the collars to each individual house the price was to be 5s., and if they went to the office and got them themselves they should only pay half-price. The Council would not agree to this.

Pene Taui: Salutations to the Premier, Mr. Carroll, and all the gentlemen present! I stand here now and say that I am very pleased to see you, and that 1 second and indorse the sentiments of the last speaker. I have nothing to say to you on this day, as it has been already stated that Monday shall be the day for talking, at Waima. That day we and the others will address you on our several grievances, and I stand here now simply to indorse the remarks of Wiremu Katene and Hare Matenga in reference to the dog-tax. Our prayer to you is that the tax should be reduced from 5s. to 2s. 6d. Now, another question I give you notice of is with reference to the Native Land Acquisition Act. We do not know whether that is law at the present time. Some say it is and some say it is not.

The Premier said,—I have listened very patiently and with great pleasure to what has been brought under my notice to-day. What struck me was the courteous language and respectful demeanour in which you have introduced your subjects. Your manner has been respectful and sincere. In the first place, I am pleased you agree with me that the best thing to do would be to leave the larger questions to be dealt with at Waima. I will first deal with the personal grievances—those in regard to the land. You speak of the improper action of others and of the action taken by the Government. Now, this is the first time I have heard anything in reference to these lands. In dealing with land the Government must be very careful lest injury be done to others. I will cause inquiry to be made how the Government became possessed of the land to which you refer. It was not explained to me, or any reason given, why the Government have taken it. As a rule, the Government is very careful, and it does not without just cause take the land of the Natives. If a mistake has arisen the Government is only too glad to set it right. If the land was confiscated and taken as a matter of right by the Government, then the Government remains in possession. It is somewhat difficult, from the meagre explanation, to know the exact position of the case. It would be better for you to reduce the whole question to writing. Now, touching the dispute of Taurau, evidently the dispute is of many years' standing, and ought to have been dealt with by the Court. Now, there are many cases where the same parties own an interest in land, and when the land is going through the Court some of them hold aloof. Then when the land has gone to others they complain, because, they say, they have been unjustly dealt with. When land is going through the Court they ought to see to their own interest. If not, the blame rests with themselves. It has been stated that one-half of this particular land has been sold. Taurau got one-half of the money, and the other half rests with the Government. I do not think it is at all possible now to go back upon the original transaction. It is only a question of whether the right person got the money—whether Taurau is entitled to £400 or £200, or how much he is entitled to. You say he did not get the whole of the money—that some of it is still in the hands of the Government. That we can find out hereafter. If you went to law, and the whole thing was to go through the Court again, perhaps the £400 would disappear. You would then be in a worse position than you are in now, because the land would be gone and the money too. I will at once page 25 make inquiries into the matter and see whether there are any good grounds for the complaint or otherwise. Now I come to the other question, and that is the question of the County Council and the dog-tax. In some places where 1 come from both the Europeans and Natives have to pay 10s. for every dog. Am I right when you tell me the dog-tax here is 5s.?—(Yes.)—Now, I can tell you how you can reduce the tax. It is in your own hands. If you only keep half the dogs that you have you would only have to pay one-half of what you do at present in the way of taxes. I would rather see more pickaninnies about the Maori pas than dogs. There is no tax to pay the County Council for pickaninnies. The taxing of dogs is a matter which rests with the County Council and not with the General Government. If I found the county was charging you more than they charge the European, I would at once step in and say it was unfair, and I would not permit it; but if they only charge you the same as they are charging the European, then the law and the Government cannot interfere. The only question now is for you to ask yourselves whether these dogs are useful and are required by you, or are simply kept as luxuries. In former days your forefathers required some dogs, because a dog was an essential necessity for procuring food; but when they are kept for pleasure and not for use, then it is a question how many you can afford to keep and pay for. As I told you at the start, in other places they are charged 10s. and in this district you are only charged 5s., consequently you only pay one-half of what is paid in other parts of the colony. That brings me now to the question as to the convenience of taking out the collars—whether the county consults your convenience as to where you can get these collars. Your representations on that head will be referred to the County Council. Another question raised was: as you contribute largely to the government of the county you think you should have some representation in the County Council. There is nothing to prevent a ratepayer, whether Native or European, from becoming a member of the County Council if he can get enough people to vote for him. I would very much like, myself, to see the Natives represented in the County Council; they might comprehend the position of things better than they do now. But it is not the fault of the law' that they are not there—it is because they do not try to get into the County Council. I feel sure that if they were to get into the County Council it would do good; and I know that amongst them they have men well capable of holding a seat in the County Council, and assisting in the local government of the country. Now, you have representatives in Parliament, and the matters you have brought under my notice are matters which are fair questions to be brought before Parliament. You may rest assured any representations made to Parliament on your behalf will be fairly considered by the representatives of both races. In the meantime there is only one law. Your forefathers, by the Treaty of Waitangi, agreed to cede the rights of government to the Crown. That sovereignty reigns supreme, and it is your protection just as much as it is the protection of the Europeans. If it were not for that protection, yourselves, your property, and your lives would not be safe. It is the only protection you have; and your forefathers saw it was in your interest that that should be done, or otherwise you would be the same as the aboriginal natives in other countries—you would disappear from the face of the earth. You should always obey the law and assist in maintaining the law, because by doing that you are assisting in maintaining yourselves and your interests. So long as you do that you will always have the good wishes of myself and those who govern the country; and I beg to assure you that if I found any one trying to impose upon you, treating you unjustly in violation of the law, I would protect you the same as the Europeans are protected; and in doing so I am only carrying out the solemn terms of the Treaty of Waitangi. You are here to-day as free men laying your grievances before me just as the Europeans do. Now, my advice to you is always to obey the law, and, if you have any grievances, submit them to the Government. If any injustice is done to you, just write to the Government, and I pledge you that you will receive just treatment. With regard to the Native Land Acquisition Act, I will discuss that with you at Waima. I wish to take every trouble to familiarise myself with the condition, thought, and circumstances of the Maori people, and that is the reason why, with the Hon. J. Carroll, my colleague, I am visiting the various Native districts and meeting the people face to face.

The Hon. J. Carroll addressed the Natives in their own language, laying stress on the inevitable changes that were coming about, and the absolute necessity there was for the Maoris to grow with the times like their European brethren. He said they would have to divorce themselves from the past, and enter into this matter-of-fact age unimpeded by the traditions and prejudices of old times. He could assure them, from what he knew, that his colleague, who was both Premier and Native Minister, was only too willing to render them every assistance in his power, in the endeavour to raise the whole Native question from out the unhappy state it had lain in so long, to a clearer and healthier atmosphere, conferring great and lasting benefits upon all.

The party took horses from Kawakawa next morning, and arrived about 5 p.m. at Taheke, six miles from the place of meeting. Stayed the night, and on the following morning proceeded to Waima. On arrival within two miles of the settlement the sound of the Native powhiri of welcome was heard, and about thirty women, attired in all the colours of the rainbow, met the Premier, and by a sort of Sir-Roger-de-Coverley movement ranged themselves fifteen on each side of him. The party was then reinforced by about thirty men, who in their turn divided and took up a position on page 26 either side of the wahines. Thus escorted the party was led to the place of meeting. Here about two hundred men had formed a square; the Premier, Hon. Mr. Carroll, and party had to shake hands with each individual. This in itself was tiring work, independent of the time taken up by some of the party rubbing noses. They have a large and substantial meeting-house here, and thither the party was conducted. It was a sight never to be forgotten to see the old greyheaded warriors who had fought at Ohaeawai, Ruapekapeka, and Korarareka. The Premier stated that he wished to see the men, women, and children, and all that were there. The platform was occupied by Hon. Mr. Seddon; Hon. Mr. Carroll; Mr. Mueller, Commissioner of Crown Lands; Mr. Clendon, R. M.; Mr. Hone Heke, M.H.R. for the district; Mr. Goffe, the Interpreter; Mr. Gray, representative of the Auckland Star; and the official shorthand-writer, Mr. Andrews.

Hone Mohi Tawhai said,—Salutations to you! Allow me to express the pleasure we feel in having a visit from the Prime Minister of the colony. I assure you your presence here to-day is welcome. I have nothing more to say, as I think you arc bound to time. I will therefore make room for other speakers.

Re te Tai said,—Salutations to you, the Premier, Mr. Carroll, and all the guests here present! Welcome to this place! This is Waima. It is one of the renowned places on the Hokianga River. This is one of the places where the gospel was first preached to our old people. Come and see us, the remnant of a people. All the old chiefs have gone. The only ones to welcome you now are the hills. The large hill of Puketeri is all that is left. It listens to what you have to say. (Song of welcome.) All the seas welcome you; the mountains welcome you. Enough—that is all I have to say.

Kahawai: Welcome, welcome, welcome! (Here there was an incantation having reference to the hill, or mountain, of Puketeri.)

Hapakuku Moetara said,—Salutations to the Premier, Mr. Carroll, and all the guests here present! My heart is glad to see you here to-day. You are one of the first Premiers who has ever dared the dangers of Hokianga to come and speak here. We welcome you. Bring the ideas you have in your heart and explain them to us to-day. Come and listen to what we have to say. We wish you long life and happiness.

Hori Haehae: Salutations to you, the Premier, and your colleague Mr. Carroll! Come and see the chiefs of Hokianga and the chiefs of Taiamai. These are the representatives of the chiefs that are now dead. All the words of our ancestors which were left behind are now in our possession. We give you welcome. Salutations!

Hori Riwhi: Welcome here to Hokianga, so that you might see the remainder of the great tribe or nation that is still under the guidance and reign of the Queen. In days gone by always had a visit from the Governor; but this time he has not come. Welcome here, so that you can explain to us that which you have in your bosom. We bid you welcome.

Iraia te Toi (chief of Waimamaku): Salutations to the Premier! We have had notice of your coming here, and that is the reason we have met to welcome you. (Incantation.) "The moon and the stars both shoot and glimmer," &c. This incantation means that it is no matter with what idea the Government may come here, we are all determined to go together—that is, pull together. It is an incantation we used to sing when going forth on the warpath. (Wiremu indorsed the sentiments expressed in the incantation by repeating it.)

Raniera Wharerau: Salutations to you, the Premier, and your colleague the Hon. Mr. Carroll! These people that are met here welcome you from their hearts. But, of course, you have some reason for coming here, and we will, perhaps, be able to listen to and appreciate that reason. This welcome that we offer you is our hospitality to you as the chief representative of New Zealand, and is according to Maori custom, and has nothing to do with what we might say afterwards. Welcome to yourself, your colleague, and all the guests present.

Wiremu Teira: Welcome! You are the people, the representatives of New Zealand: therefore we give you the greatest welcome we can possibly afford. Welcome to all these parts! I am glad to see you travelling over the country to see the wants of your nation. This is simply a welcome; we have business to attend to and cannot lose time, as your time will probably be short. This is a welcome of love from our ancestors and a greeting to you.

Wiremu Katene said,—I think, now, there has been sufficient welcome.

Hone Heke, M.H.R., said, addressing the Premier,—You see before you all the old people and the young. These are all the representatives of the great tribes, so you will be perfectly justified in saying you have met the representatives of these two tribes—the tribes of Ngapuhi and Te Rarawa.

The Premier said,—To you of the Native race here assembled, men, women, and children, I give you friendly greeting, and that greeting comes from over six hundred thousand Europeans in this country. I speak for them. We do not forget the time when the Native race was as plentiful and as numerous as we now find the trees that represent them, and that we the pakehas were few. You then behaved kindly to the Europeans, and you gave them a welcome to your land and treated them as brothers. Now we find the position reversed: we find the pakehas arc growing more numerous every day, and we find the Native race is passing away from the face of the earth; therefore it behoves those who wish them well to go amongst them, speak to them, and endeavour if page 27 possible to preserve them. It is painful for me to have to admit the fact, which you have stated in your words of welcome, that the hills are all that are left to welcome me; that your fathers have passed away, and that you are a remnant only of a noble race. It is not yet too late, however; there is here before me now a representative gathering, and I think, if we go the right way about it, you may still increase in numbers, in greatness, and prosperity; for I wish you and the Europeans to live side by side, and all be happy and contented in this beautiful country of your ancestors which you inhabit. There is room for all. It is not the wish of the Government, it is not the wish of the pakeha, it is not the wish of our noble Queen under whom we servo, and whom we love, that you should degenerate or pass away. When the Treaty of Waitangi was signed the Government of the day promised you protection: your forefathers saw that protection was necessary, and in the interest of yourselves. It is the boast of all who live under the British flag that there is freedom, and each has his liberty. The Queen is the mother of us all, of both races, no matter what colour. We are her children. She is pleased when she finds we are prospering, contented, and increasing. It is not her wish, neither is it the wish of those who serve under her, that your race should pass away and be a thing of the past; and her representative, the Governor, when I arrived in Auckland a few days ago, expressed to me the very great pleasure he felt at my going through the country speaking to the Natives personally and inquiring as to their wants. I feel sure that your voices will be heard across the sea, and that your Queen, whom you acknowledge, love, and respect, will hear the words and feel the loyalty shown by her subjects now assembled in this room. She will be pleased to learn that you obey her laws, and that you are her liege subjects; that you desired to do that which is right and in conformity with the words of your forefathers. Words have been spoken to-day expressing regret at the absence of her representative, the Governor; but, on his behalf, I must state that he has not been long in the colony, although during the time he has been here he has endeavoured, so far as his time and the business he has had to transact has permitted, to visit the different parts of the colony; and I hope before the term of his office expires that he will stand as I do here and speak to you as Her Majesty's representative. As his chief adviser, as the Prime Minister, speaking as I speak and wish to speak to-day on behalf of both races, rest assured that whatever takes place shall be made known to Her Majesty's representative. I shall tell him of the welcome given me to-day by the two great tribes mentioned, the Ngapuhi and the Te Rarawa. Believe me that before I decided to visit the Natives in the different parts of the North Island—before I left Wellington—in fact, from the first time I entered Parliament—my heart has always warmed to the Native race. I have met many in the number of years that I have been in Parliament—from 1879 until the present time I have sat there continuously—and I have seen many representatives of the Native race in the New Zealand Parliament. I have listened to their pleadings on behalf of their fellow-countrymen, and I have been aware of the laws that have been passed to alleviate the condition of the Natives. To me it was a great pleasure that the son of an old friend, who was once a representative of the Native race in Parliament, should be the first to welcome me. I feel sure that had Mohi Tawhai senior been in good health, and could have been here, nothing would have given me greater joy than to have shaken hands with him. Now, I am here to-day, and shall speak plainly to you. I shall not hide my thoughts. I know a mist has overhung you and your destinies for many years, and I am here to-day to endeavour to remove that mist. When friends meet, and both are troubled in mind, an interchange of thoughts, open words, and speaking plainly to each other gives light in itself. To use words merely to dissemble, to disguise your inmost thoughts, will not tend to improve your condition; but if there is a free interchange, if you tell me your thoughts, tell me what you believe is against you and against your race, I am prepared to listen, and act towards you as a friend. Now, when there is trouble with the pakehas, when they have grievances, Ministers go to see them, and discuss matters with them; they ascertain their wishes, and legislation is introduced to give effect to what is considered for their good. So we are now treating the Native race the same as we treat the Europeans. You have here to-day the Prime Minister, who has come to give you friendly greeting, and to hear what you have to say. We want you to understand this: that the Parliament which rules supreme is open to the Native race as it is open to the pakeha. It is in that Parliament that they are on the one floor and the one plane. There is no distinction; and it is from that Parliament that I honestly believe the only redress of a permanent character can be given to the Native race. It has been said—I have heard it from the mountain-tops, from the lakes, I have heard it on the hills, and have heard the wail in the valley—that the Natives cannot obtain justice from the Parliament. So far as I am concerned I do not admit that; but in order to advance from our present position we must set aside the past and commence afresh. The Parliament is open to you. Any measures that you desire to be introduced must go before that Parliament. So long as they are couched in respectful language—so long as they deal with subjects that affect your interests—that Parliament is open to you as well as to the Europeans. The special representation which was given to you by those who framed our laws was not given to you simply as a myth; it was not given to the Native race to be played with; it was given in the belief that those representing the Native race in the New Zealand Parliament would be able to introduce measures, and help to page 28 pass such laws, as would be beneficial both to the Native and European races. Now, the Native race has not done justice in the past to their own representatives. I have known the Natives in the House doing their very best—Mohi Tawhai, Karaitiana, and others—to further the claims of their people. You have now in my friend Hone Heke a very fair representative—one who, I am sure, will represent your interests; but in the past, while your representatives in Parliament have been doing their best for you, hostile meetings have been held outside, and confidence has been withdrawn from your representatives, preventing them from doing you any good. I heard to-day from the song, which was explained to me, that you are a united band, pulling along together in your own interests. Then, I say, I am pleased to find that it is so; but it has not been so in the past. You know the words, "A kingdom divided against itself cannot stand." You have heard of the fable of the bundle of sticks, when the father said to the sons, "Draw' a stick from the bundle and try and break it and they broke it. "Now," he said, "put the sticks all together in the bundle, and try to break them." They tried, but they could not do it. I say, therefore, that if you are divided amongst yourselves you will be like the stick—become broken; but if you keep together you will not be so broken. Now, I am going to advise you to meet together, come to conclusions as to what you believe to be in your interest, then submit the same through your mouthpiece, your member. When the elections were proceeding there may have been those amongst you who considered that others would have made better representatives, and may have voted for those who are not now representatives—voted for the defeated candidates. But when once the election is over, whatever the majority have decided, that is the selection for the time being—for the three years. You must therefore look upon the sitting member for the time being as the mouthpiece of all; that when he speaks he speaks for the Native race and for the district which he has the honour to represent; and it is his duty, if he is conscientious and keeps the oath he takes when sworn in as the sitting member for the district, to set aside all feeling against those who have opposed him. He represents the interests of every man, woman, and child in the district. If he does that he will earn the confidence of all those who trusted him. Those Who voted for him will say, "We are pleased with our representative"; those who voted against him will say, "After all, he proves a good representative; he has done his duty towards us"; and hence confidence will be established. But if he is in Wellington endeavouring to do what is right towards you, and there are others at home who are calling meetings and thwarting him in all he is trying to do, then you will be like the boys who took the sticks from the bundle, you will be in a worse position than you were before. Have your meetings in every hamlet, have your meetings at every pa, and at your meetings let your educated young men, your sage old men, those who have in the past governed and assisted in your government—let them meet together, let them discuss that which you believe to be in the interest of your race and the colony in general, and, having come to conclusions, let your member be fortified with those conclusions, so that when he stands in his place in the House he can say, "After careful consideration these are the conclusions at which our people have arrived, this is what our people want at the hands of Parliament." This is what the pakehas do; they hold their meetings, they have their associations, they discuss each question affecting both races, they come to conclusions, and the members are the mouthpieces of the pakeha and those who have held those meetings. It is with that object in view that I am here in person. I want to remove the false impression that has gained ground here year by year that there was no redress for the Natives from the New Zealand Parliament. I want them to believe that the Parliament is their friend if they go the right way to work—that there are members there who are prepared and willing to assist in removing the grievances that exist with the Natives at the present time. How is it possible to remove these grievances when we do not know what they are? Or, if one set of Natives will say one thing and another will say differently,—we find them disorganized, we find them unsatisfied as to what they want, we find them quarrelling between themselves,—how can we do anything for a people who act that way? Therefore it behoves you, before it is too late, to consider your position. Your chiefs, your rangatiras, those who wish you well, must see that year after year you are growing smaller and smaller in numbers; you are gradually passing away, and not as your forefathers did, who lived to a good round old age, but you seem to pass away in the prime of life, and your little ones seldom reach maturity. It is painful to me to feel that that is so; but nevertheless the sore is there, and it must be healed. We desire you to live to the good old age your forefathers did. Then, I say, help me, help yourselves; let us help each other. I have thus spoken so far because you say you expected me to say a few words and open my mind to you. I have done so so far plainly to you; later on in the day I will indicate in what direction relief can be granted of a permanent character. I want first of all to have your confidence, and I want, by the few words I have said, to show you that I am desirous of doing that which is in your interest, and not only in your interest but in the interest of the pakehas and all of you as a whole. I am not amongst you to-day just for the purpose of listening, and, after listening, to forget what you have said. Were 1 to do that, I should disgrace the very high position that I occupy, and it would not meet with the approval of the pakehas. I should not meet you as I have met you to-day, shaken hands with you and wished you "Tena koe!" if desired to do you a wrong. I should not be here page 29 and partake of your food if I had in my heart thoughts which might be to your injury. I should not listen to the words of welcome from the chiefs and old men here, representatives of the tribes and chiefs of the hapus; I should not be a man worthy of the name of man—and more especially the first man in the Colony of New Zealand—did I ever for a moment wish you ill. When I heard your incantations and songs of welcome they pleased me very much. I knew you were paying me very high compliments, and that you welcomed me as the Premier of the colony, and as a likely friend to the Maori people. I am prepared to listen to what you have to say, and when I have heard you I shall then be able to explain matters which probably you may not have a correct idea of. In some matters you may be perfectly correct as regards the bearing of the laws upon you and your interests; then, I say, let me know how these laws bear unjustly upon you, and I will tell you how far we can go, and I will tell you what may be in your interests in respect to the same. But above all things I want to remove the impression that has gone abroad, and that is, that the Natives cannot get justice from the Europeans and from Parliament. You have taken up a negative position hitherto, and in taking up that negative position pressure is becoming so strong behind the Government—the changes coming over the country are so great—that unless you consider your situation at once and act quickly in the right direction disaster will be bound to follow, and you will be responsible for it. To stand still any longer means to recede. You must progress; we not do want to see you recede; we do not want you to be wiped, as it were, from off the face of the earth—not by pestilence, by sickness, not by any action of the Europeans, but by yourselves. You yourselves are day by day the cause of the reduction in your numbers. We must go to the root of the disease. You want hope, you want something to look forward to—some ideal. To you at the present time all is dark, all is blank; there is no hope in the breasts of the rising generation of the Native race. Where are the cultivations to-day compared with what they were a few years ago? Ask your chiefs to compare the present condition with what it was when they were youths. The next session of the New Zealand Parliament will be one of the most important that has ever taken place in New Zealand as affecting the Native race. We say that faith must be kept, that the solemn pledge that was given on both sides when the Treaty of Waitangi was signed must be kept. We say the Treaty of Waitangi must be maintained, and that the present condition of affairs must not continue further. I thank you very heartily for the welcome you have given me, and I am sure that what takes place here to-day will have a favourable bearing on all concerned. In other places the Natives have told me their troubles; like one who is about to face the world and is anxious to travel on the right road, they have confided in me. Although grievances differ in one district and another, I do not find them irreconcilable altogether. If you tell me your troubles I shall then be able to compare your grievances with what I have heard elsewhere; I shall hear from you what you believe will redress those grievances; and when I go back to Wellington and prepare legislation for next session, which I hope will not run counter with your suggestions, something might be done under which the colony will prosper. I am not boasting when I tell you we have at the present time the strongest Government that was ever in New Zealand, and with that great strength we desire to be just and fair to the Native race. We are the first Government since 1877 that has had a Native representative in the Cabinet. There is my friend Mr. Carroll, one of yourselves; and, without at all flattering my colleague, he is one who from his first start in Parliament has ever tried to put the Natives on an equal footing with the Europeans, and endeavoured to pass laws which would have the same effect on both. We have his assistance therefore in Cabinet, and have him here to-day to assist us. You can speak to him like a brother, one who has the interest of the Native race at heart. In his face, in his thoughts, and in his form there are the two races united. You do not find the two bloods quarrelling. When you look at his person you see a wholesome blend; the two races are there working in harmony together. It shows that the European and the Native race can mix with satisfactory results, and the product of such union is apparently free from sickness of body or sickness of mind. We may differ when speaking to each other later on, but you know my wishes towards you are good, and your wishes towards me and my race are also good, and if we exchange thoughts as men desirous of doing good, benefit must result therefrom. We want everything scanned by the light of day, and by the intelligence of the country; nothing done in darkness, nothing done in secret. What we do here to-day the world will know of just as well as I shall, and these proceedings will be read by the people of both races. I shall probably determine that what takes place here shall be translated into the Native language, and circulated through the country. I shall conclude for the present by thanking you for the hearty welcome you have accorded me. (Loud cheers.)

The Hon. Mr. Carroll then addressed the meeting at great length, and in a most earnest and eloquent speech urged the Natives to take the advice of his colleague the Premier, and endeavour to thresh out something of a practical nature which would be of advantage to all. He was well received, and loudly cheered at the conclusion. An adjournment was now made to a large house, where a capital lunch was provided. The Native women were untiring in their efforts to make everything pass off well. Over two hundred sat down, and, considering the short notice, it is marvellous how they could have produced such a repast, and it went to show that the Native lady can on such occasions rise equal to her European sister.

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On resuming,

Wiremu Katene said,—This is the first time we have had the pleasure of hearing members of the Government address us at such length and so ably. The people all here present have some matters to place before you to-day; but silice we have had dinner I hear some of them are low-spirited at the prospect of there not being sufficient time at your disposal to hear all they have to say. I am now speaking for them. I think we should be able to dispose of all the business this afternoon. If so, well and good; but if we are unable to get through the whole of our business this afternoon we request that you will stay here to-night. We have several questions to discuss here to-day, and unless there is time given we shall not be able to go into the details. I should like to hear the Premier state whether he can stay so as to get through these matters.

The Premier: It is no use my coming here and going away unless we have business done that is satisfactory to both. I am not like a shooting star—simply seen for a few moments and then disappear. (Cheers.) I am not afraid to travel even in the night. We will go on with the business, and you will be the best judges whether we have gone through it or not. If we go to work like business men and confine ourselves to business we shall do some good. To save time we will proceed, and if I can get through to-night, well and good. I am prepared to stay late and work late; and if I get at Rawene at daylight to-morrow that will suit me. I am prepared to work all night.

Pene Taui said,—The first question is this; I would like you to answer the question that I asked you at Waimate—that is, in reference to the Native Land Purchase and Acquisition Act.

The Premier: Do I understand from you that you have not had the Act, and that you have not read it and do not understand it?

Pene Taui: The only question to answer is. Why is it passed into law? Some have received it; some have not.

The Premier: The Native Land Purchase and Acquisition Act was passed last year. It received the assent of the Governor on 6th October, 1893. When the Act was going through Parliament, a number of Natives, who held a meeting at Wellington, expressed a wish for a postponement of the Act, so that the Natives should have an opportunity of knowing its provisions. Therefore it only came into force absolutely on the 1st January last. It has, therefore, been law since the 1st January, and is in operation wherever the Government desire and can effect a Proclamation. So far the Government have not put any Proclamation over the land. We have had applications from Natives to have their land put under the Proclamation, but I thought that all the Natives in different parts of the colony should be fully acquainted with the law before we acted under it. It would not be fair for one district to have an advantage over another. There are some Natives who might object to having a law brought into force and a Proclamation issued affecting their land when they did not know its provisions or anything about it. The principles of the measure are briefly these: By the Treaty of Waitangi the Natives agreed that all lands were to be sold to the Government. When your forefathers agreed to that, they no doubt intended that the Government should pay them a fair value for the land. There has always been in my mind a doubt as to whether the Natives got a fair value for their land, because the Government generally waited until the necessities of the Natives forced them to sell, then, being the only purchasers, the land was bought at a less price than its fair value. Now, there were no means or ways of settling the disputes between the Government and the Natives as to what was the fair value. The Act we passed removed that difficulty; and it also facilitates the business of dealing with waste lands. The great trouble in the past has been that Natives would sell their land, but, as a rule, they never completed the transfer, and the expenses of partition came upon the Natives who had not sold. Where the interest was small, the expenses of survey and putting it through the Court ate up the land, and the Natives got little or nothing. Now, by the Act of last session this is obviated—a better system is introduced. A majority of the owners of a block, if they come to a decision to sell, say to the Government, We will sell or allow you to lease this land for us"; and there is an independent Board, consisting of the Commissioner of Crown Lands, the Commissioner of Taxes, the Surveyor-General, the Native member representing the district, and a member appointed by the Judge of the Native Land Court. In this selection there is an independent Board of impartial persons, who decide whether or not a fair value is offered for the land. Of course, if the owners offer to sell they fix their own price; and, so long as the Government consider it a fair price, and the Board also consider it so, there should be no trouble. It is very much the same as the Land for Settlement Act which applies to Europeans who desire to sell their land to the Government. Under this law, if two-thirds of the Native owners do not desire to sell to the Government, or allow the Government to lease for them, they have power, under sections 26 and 27 of the Act, to submit the land to public auction. It is sold by public auction under the same law and provisions as though the Government were selling Crown lands. Generally speaking, these are the main provisions of the Act passed, and it is the most liberal law that has ever been passed in the colony affecting the Native race. If there are any other provisions of the Act that require explanations, I shall be only too glad to give them to you. I have a copy of the Act here. I have only now given you the general provisions of the Act. It would shorten business if I confine myself to answering any questions you desire to ask.

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Pene Taui (addressing the tribes): The meeting has heard that this Native Land Purchase and Acquisition Act is now law. We have the Act and have gone carefully through it, and there are some here who can point out the faults we see in the Act.

The Premier: I shall be very pleased to hear them. We do the same with the Europeans: if a law is passed which is defective, our attention is drawn to it, and we make whatever amendments are required. I shall therefore be very pleased to hear any suggestions you have to make as regards amendments in the law that you think necessary.

Wiremu Komene: Tena koe! Greeting! You have already stated that the Native Land Purchase and Acquisition Act is passed into law. I will now go into the details; and in doing so we wish you to give a direct answer to any question we put to you. Has the Governor signed the Act?

The Premier: Yes.

Wiremu Komene: Will it not have to go to England?

The Premier: It has already received the sanction of the Queen.

Wiremu Komene; In the preamble to the Bill reference is made to the fact that there are seven million acres of Native land lying idle in the colony. There are, I believe, ten million acres of Grown lands in the colony remaining unused. Is it not possible to utilise these Crown lands?

The Premier: The question just submitted is the most simple that has ever been asked. It is quite true that we have nearly ten million acres of Crown lands still unsettled; but we do not settle people upon the bare mountain-top; we do not settle them in the river-beds or in the lakes, and it would be quite impossible to utilise the greater portion of these lands for very many years to come. A good deal of the Crown lands in the North Island is blocked for settlement by the Natives. In the South Island we have to devote a large area to the settlement of landless Natives. Then we have had to go and buy land from Europeans so as to put a large number of our population on the land. So short of land in the South Island are we that we have had to pass a law to buy back from the Europeans lands which had already been sold to them. In the North Island there is a large area of the very best land in the country that is unoccupied by Europeans or Natives. It is lying in a state of waste, doing no good to anybody. Now, it is unreasonable to expect for a moment that in the South Island we should be obliged to ask Parliament to pass a law to force the owners to sell back to the Government, and in the North Island the land should be allowed to remain unutilised. Most of the Crown land in the North, as you are aware, is of a very inferior quality. You have always taken care to sell us gum-land. We cannot put people on such land.

Pene Taui: The Natives have no jurisdiction over the land now. The Government can buy where they see fit. Why is the law worded in that way?

The Premier: The ownership by the Natives has been ceded by the Crown. We have never raised the question, and we have no intention of raising it now; but we are following on the lines of the Treaty of Waitangi in a colonising spirit, when we say that the title to the land must be ascertained, and that the land must be utilised. We have said that a large proportion of the land is suitable for settling people upon, and there is a rapidly-increasing demand for land for settlement purposes. Progress is retarded.—(A voice: Kahore.)—I say that settlement is kept back, to the detriment of the Natives themselves. If the land were easily settled, the Natives would get fair value for it. I came through splendid land yesterday. There are very many owners to it: but one single owner will not go and improve that land and make it productive, because, if he makes improvements all the others share with him. The consequence is that the land remains untouched as it is. There are six hundred thousand acres north of Auckland not through the Court. So long as the land remains like that, with no owners ascertained, it means that no one will go near it; and the longer the titles are unascertained the greater the danger to the Natives, and the greater the difficulty in ascertaining the titles hereafter. Hence I say the Government have come to the conclusion that it is necessary this state of affairs must come to an end. If you say the law has been defective because of the large expense of the Court in ascertaining the titles, that is a good ground for complaint, and it is right you should ask the Government to remedy it. Last year ten thousand people came into the colony more than went out of it; therefore you will understand the great pressure which is being brought to bear on the Government, and you will understand the very great danger to the Native owners it they permit things to remain much longer as they are; in fact, I tell you plainly, speaking for the Government, and speaking for both races, that it is impossible to allow things, to remain much longer as they have been. There was nothing stated in the preamble of the Bill winch you have read but what is absolutely true, and if I could take you down to the South Island, or over parts of the North Island, and show you the general condition of the country, you would come back convinced that what I have told you is absolutely true. Are you cultivating and improving the land? No; because you are uncertain—you do not know what to do; so that the sooner every one knows what is his own, and can do something with it, the better for him. I hope, therefore, you will consider my answer as regards the preamble satisfactory. I have told you the truth—there is the law.

Wiremu Komene: One section here, section 3, gives power to the Governor to remove any Maori Commissioner. Why should he be singled out?

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The Premier: There will only be a revocation where the Commissioner has misbehaved himself. The power is used as we have it; in many Acts of Parliament. It is never used when a Commissioner exercises independent judgment and does what is right; but if a Commissioner was to do something wrong—misbehave himself, break the law and misconduct himself—on account of such bad behaviour the Governor would remove him. That is my answer to that.

Wiremu Komene: When once a Proclamation is put over a block of land by the Government and the Natives do not wish to sell to the Government, that Proclamation shall remain in force three years. Why is that?

The Premier: The answer to this is a very simple one, the same as the other. There must be a time given when there is a difficulty in the minds of the owners as to whether or not they will sell. But you have never read section 26: If two-thirds of the owners desire to sell the land by public auction, all they have got to do is to signify the same to the Government, then it is sold or leased by public tender. Now, compare this with the previous law. You talk about three years: are you aware that under the old law the owners of that land could take £5 from the Government and the Proclamation could stop there for twenty years? Are you aware that by the Treaty of Waitangi, under what is known as the prescriptive right, you could do nothing with your lands except through the Government? As compared with the previous law, you will therefore see, at all events, that the fullest time that a Proclamation can be exercised is three years; that if at any time two-thirds of the owners desire to dispose of the land, they can do so under sections 26 and 27 of the Act. I say this Act is in your favour. If you want to go back to the provision contained in the Treaty of Waitangi, which says that the Natives shall not sell to anybody except the Government, and that shall apply to all lands; if yon want to perpetuate the law that any one who takes £5 absolutely ties up the land until the Government have bought—if you want that law, say so. I myself do not wish to do that to you, hence we have made the law more liberal as affecting your lands. The majority can settle the question as to whether or not they will sell or let to the Government. After they have come to a conclusion the Government can withdraw the Proclamation at any time, but the maximum time is three years. I think this explanation should satisfy you that this clause is a very liberal clause as compared with the previous legislation.

Wiremu Komene: Why is it, in the case where the Maoris fail to make their appointment to the Board, a Judge of the Supreme Court can make the appointment instead?

The Premier: This matter was debated at great length, and the conclusion arrived at was that no person holding a position in the colony would give so much confidence to the Native race as a Judge of the Supreme Court, because he is beyond all politics and beyond all parties, and grave complaints have been made to the Government in the past that the trustees who have been appointed have not done their duty. This only applies to minors—where persons are not of age. It is only in those cases where they failed to appoint that the Judge is called in. If you think there is any other person that would act more impartially than a Judge of the Supreme Court you had better mention him to me to-day. That is of little or no moment to the Government. All we want to do is to get some person who would act fairly and use judgment in dealing with so important a question.

Wiremu Komene: If the owners of any land under Crown grant or memorial of ownership are inclined to sell to the Crown, what provision is there for the dissentients, or those who do not wish to sell to the Government?

The Premier: The provision is that they will get their share of the proceeds just the same. It is the same with all the laws we pass—the majority pass them. I might ask you the same sort of question—namely, what is to be done with those persons who voted against Hone Heke? They threw their votes away for the time being, although they will have an opportunity of voting again when the proper time comes. We are following out a well-established law, that the majorities must rule; but there is a remedy for you outside that, and that remedy is under section 26. If one-third of the objectors join with the majority and make two-thirds, they can withdraw it altogether from the Proclamation, and have it sold by auction, and by that means they will get the market value, which cannot be less than the Government offered.

Wiremu Komene: I am still not very clear. Supposing some agree to sell and some do not, how will those who did not agree to sell fare?

The Premier: They hold an election by the owners, and can get it removed from sale to the Government and have it sold by auction.

Wiremu Komene: This want of provision under the Act to provide for the minority who refuse to sell involves the question of individualisation. But is nothing to empower the minority who do not wish to sell?

The Premier: The first thing to be done by the Board is to ascertain whether the persons who are the owners of this land have ample land for themselves before any land can be put under offer. The principle is there laid down, if the majority of the owners want to dispose of the land, and the Board lays down that the land is wanted for settlement, a minority of two or three persons are not going to page 33 stop the settlement of the country—they are not going to stop the majority from disposing of that land. There may be a majority of persons who own, say, two thousand acres, and there may be one person who will say, "I will not sell to the Government, I will keep my ten acres"; and he would then force the rest to go to the expense of survey, partition, ascertaining the acreage, and the cutting out of that piece of land. That has been the ruin of any number of Natives in the past, and we do not intend it to be the case in the future.

Wiremu Komene: Now I come to section 11; Where the owners are disposed to lease their land, for the purposes of this Act such land shall be deemed to be Crown land. That is a point I am asking about.

The Premier: It is only deemed to be Crown land for the purpose of giving a better title to the purchaser. It does not take it from the Natives, but gives a better title—as good as though it was Crown land; and the advantage, will be on the side of the Natives, because they will get more money for the laud and get more rents. If there is liable to be a dispute amongst the Natives themselves they would get smaller rents. In fact, the one great advantage in this legislation is this: that as soon as it is sold or disposed of under this Act it is all treated as Crown land, so as to give a title to the owner or purchaser. We have done this to prevent litigation, and to prevent the Natives from being bled by lawsuits of a most expensive character. The absolute ownership still vests with the Natives, but the Crown has the management and disposal of it; and the title, when for the purpose of leasing, is the same as though it was Crown laud; and the valuation is made by the Board just the same, so as the land cannot be let for anything below its fair value.

Wiremu Komene: Then, there is another provision in the Act, empowering the Governor by Proclamation or Order to bring the Native lands before the Native Land Court for adjudication. Is that power given to the Governor in cases where the Natives refuse to have their lands investigated?

The Premier: When this land has been proclaimed under the Act, there may be some of the Natives who will stand out. It would be impossible, of course, for the Governor to act unless the title was ascertained. How could the owners hold an election and decide to sell or lease to the Government unless the ownership itself was decided? The wrong people might be voted to dispose of land, and might dispose of laud not belonging to them. The title must be ascertained, and that is what this clause is for.

Wiremu Komene: Then why should the Natives be saddled with the cost and expense of such proceedings.

The Premier: It is the law now. It is your laud; it is in the interest of the owners that the title should be ascertained, and if the land is sold the owners get the benefit of it. We do the same with the Europeans. Mr. Mueller will tell you we always charge them. You have forgotten section 14: it should be explained to you, because under it no land which is wholly or part of the time a pa, Native village, or cultivation can be proclaimed; it does not apply to land so occupied.

Wiremu Komene: The next question is in reference to section 15. I want an explanation of that section. How is it that when Natives, who have sold to the Government under this, are found to have no other land, certain provisions are mentioned in regard to such Native or Natives?

The Premier: You have evidently misunderstood the section: it does not propose to take land from the others and give it to these landless Natives, but it is proposed that they shall not be able to sell, but that their land shall be reserved for them. And the Government may, if it is not desired to get that land out of the block sold, give an amount of land in lieu of any such interest or interests, and it must be 25 acres of first-class land, 50 acres of second-class land, and 100 acres of third-class land for each individual. It would have been a good job if a law like that had been in force before, and we would not have so many landless Natives in the colony.

Wiremu Komene: Reference is made to section 16. It is unfair that advances should be made to Natives where they have transferred their land for leasing purposes. There is some provision in that section whereby advances can be made from time to time to Natives while such land is undealt with. The land itself will have to pay these advances, and will be the means of the departure of that land from the Native ownership.

The Premier: The position is very plain here, and I will give you the reason why this was urged upon the Government and Parliament. It was said that the Natives want money, and to prevent their selling the land and getting the money and spending it foolishly, if they were to offer the land for lease, and, while waiting for the land to be taken up, the Government should advance to them some moneys to keep them pending tenants coming forward. You will see how fair this is to you. You have forgotten the most material part, that you can borrow money at 4 per cent. The Government advance you money at 4 per cent. If you had to borrow from the pakehas they would charge you 10 per cent. Now, the money is a first charge upon the rents. If you would say to me to-day, "We do not want to get money at 4 per cent, when we offer the land for leasing; we do not want the money at all," we will strike that out. The pakehas in the House fought against this, and the Government had to remain very firm to get this through for you. You see it is only a first charge upon the rents, it has nothing to do with the purchase of the land, unless under section 26 you desire to sell the land by auction, it would then be payable out of the purchase-money. I do not think, myself, that the owners would care to sell to the Government if page 34 they could borrow money at 4 per cent. When the local bodies want to borrow money from the Government they have to pay 5 per cent. If the Natives have to borrow money from the moneylender they have to pay 8 and 10 per cent. If you get credit from the storekeeper, he charges you 20 per cent. If you say you do not want the Government to give you credit at 4 per cent., then they will strike it out. I look upon this as the most favourable clause in the Bill to the Natives.

Wiremu Komene: Why should that provision be made in the Act where it empowers the Government, in paying the proceeds of the land to the Natives, to pay half in debentures, which debentures, with the balance, are to be vested in the Public Trustee? I am questioning the principle of debentures embodied in the Act; it is under section 17. Why should the money be paid in debentures? I consider the Natives are quite able to look after their interests and any money in case they required the use of the money.

The Premier: The answer to the question is that the Government decided in section 17 that, notwithstanding any of the provisions of this Act, the Governor may, with respect to any capital moneys arising from any land acquired under this Act, direct any portion thereof not exceeding one-half to be paid to the Public Trustee, to be held and applied, both as to capital and income, upon such terms and subject to such conditions for the benefit of the persons entitled as the Governor may think proper, and the Governor may from time to time make or alter such terms and conditions. We have cases in point; we have the wretched past before us, and it is no use you standing up there and telling me that the Natives are able to look after their own moneys, because we have paid some thousands of pounds to the Natives. I have just now come through the Moawhanga district—a district just beyond Hunterville. We have paid there £90,000, and I have met some of the Natives with not an acre of land, not a pound in their pockets, their money all gone—worse than before they received it. And this section only applies to an amount not exceeding one-half; so that if a Native sold one hundred pounds' worth of land he would receive £50 cash, and, if the Governor thought fit, £50 in debentures. It would be the same as putting £50 in the bank, because you are to receive interest from the Public Trustee; you do not put your money there and get no interest upon it. It is an insurance, and you receive interest on it for all time, yourself and your children after you, and it is not attachable for debt. Do you want the money to go and squander in drink? Is it not better to prevent them squandering their means, and make provision so that they will have something to live upon in their old age? The land cannot be swallowed; but the money you might "swallow." Every year when the interest comes due you will find it very nice to receive your interest, which cannot be attached. You will say it is a good Government and a good people who made that provision for you.

Wiremu Komene: Now, with regard to those owners—minors and others—not capable of acting for themselves: It would be advisable that their share of the purchase-money or proceeds of the land should be handed over to trustees of the minors.

The Premier: I cannot agree with you, and I will tell you why. We know many cases where money has been handed over to the trustees and the trustees have spent it, and when the minors came of age they had no money. The trustees said, "You can take us, but the money is gone." The law of your ancestors who had an interest in the land said the land should belong to him and his heirs. If the land belonged to the parents altogether, then the children would not be in the certificate of title. The parents have no right to get that money and be able to spend it. What is the good of your children being in the certificate of title if you afterwards say the money must go to the parents? Better save trouble and say the certificate of title shall be given only to the parents. But if the land belongs to the children it should be preserved to them until they come of age; and if they then like to give it to the parents, well and good; but it has always been the duty of the State to preserve the interest of those who are not able to look after themselves—I mean the minors and infants. And I will not believe that the Natives have changed their minds, and want to give the proceeds to trustees or parents, so that they can spend the proceeds. The Ngatimaniapotos were very firm in this respect—they would not hear of trustees taking the interests of persons whose lands were purchased by the Government; they insisted on every one having his individual rights. I know cases where there are Natives who ought to be very well to do to-day, and through trustees squandering their moneys and getting their names put in the certificates of titles they lost their laud and are now paupers. That must not occur again.

Wiremu Komene: I object to the principle of section 24.

The Premier: You would have to see the Public Trustee, and get the proceeds invested, and under that Act guarantee the interest and principal and insure safety. It would be dealing with this land as we find the Europeans do with their money. They give the Public Trustee money voluntarily—aye, thousands of pounds to invest.

Wiremu Komene: As regards section 26—although you have already dealt with it—it is unsatisfactory; particularly the last paragraph, where it gives the Government the right to refuse to remove such Proclamation or not. The Governor may, by Order in Council, give effect to the removal of such Proclamation.

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The Premier: It is compulsory. It is this: "On a proclamation being revoked the Native owners of the land held under unrestricted title within the area formerly proclaimed may thereafter dispose of the land either by sale or lease, and not otherwise, to any person whomsoever, provided that such land is first submitted to public auction, and that no larger quantity of rural land than six hundred and forty acres of first-class land, or two thousand acres of second-class land, or ten thousand acres of pastoral land, shall be put up for sale by auction in any one lot, and for this purpose the land shall be first classified by the Waste Lands Board of the district in which it is situate, and thereafter be offered for sale under the provisions of section sixty-seven of 'The Land Act, 1892.'" It is imperative.

Wiremu Komene: Section 31 is unsatisfactory.

The Premier: Will you point out how it is unsatisfactory?

Wiremu Komene: The sales of land for cash—how are transfers effected? The machinery clause: and look at section 22—we object to the principle involved therein. With reference to those who do not elect to sell, that they have to give notice of their objection, and failing to give such notice their silence is taken as their consent thereto. If the notice is given they have their remedy by applying for partition in the Native Land Court. That would entail great expense. Both ways are unsatisfactory.

The Premier: You blow hot and you blow cold. You ask a question in regard to section 4 as to what was to become of the Natives who do not want to sell; Were they bound by the majority? and that if they were bound by the majority they were unfairly treated. Section 22 gives them an alternative to keep their land and have it partitioned. Why should the minority say, we will neither sell nor lease, nor will we have our own land defined. I say to take up such a position as that is unfair, and will not be tolerated for one moment. They will not go on the land themselves and cultivate it because they do not know which is their land. They will not lease, they will not sell, they will not let any one else go on the land. Practically, they want to keep the land in a state of nature. It is that which has killed more people than have been lost in battle, or who have suffered from disease. It is that which is wiping the Native race from off the face of the earth. If each had their own land and their rights defined they would know what they were doing. But they are now living in an absolute state of poverty, degradation, and hunger. If you take up this negative position you are strangling the Natives by degrees. You will not trust the rangatiras—you will not even trust yourselves; but you take up a negative position. I say you are destroying the tribes, you are destroying the race. If we had this great question settled and the titles to the land ascertained, so that the Natives would know what they were doing, I believe it would be the regeneration of the Native race. They would have comfortable homes and food and good clothes for their children. They would have an assured income, and want would never come to their door. It therefore comes back to this—that the few must not injure the many.

Hone Heke (to the Premier). They say that you have given answers to all their questions about the Act, and that there is no need to go into anything else. It would be better now to refer to the different local grievances.

The Premier: Perhaps they will discuss amongst themselves the other matters of detail in connection with the Act and send a letter down to me with the details, and I will get them gone into carefully in Wellington and give them just as much attention as I would give them to-day.