First Day.—Thursday, September 5th.

Mr. J. D. Ritchie, Secretary of the Department of Agriculture, opened the proceedings by stating that the Conference had been called by the Government at the request of a large number of Agricultural and Pastoral Societies, to consider certain schemes formulated by Mr. D. J. Nathan and Mr. M. C. Orbell, having for their object the improvement and development of the Frozen-meat Industry, A provisional committee had been set up, consisting of Messrs. D. J. Nathan, M. C. Orbell, "W. C. Buchanan, M.H.R., D. Buddo, M.H.R., J. Stevens, M.H.R., and himself, which had drawn up a series of resolutions based on the schemes proposed, and which were submitted to the Conference for discussion. He presumed that Messrs. Nathan and Orbell would give the Conference their views, to pave the way for discussion, after the appointment of a Chairman.

On the motion of Mr. D. J. Nathan, Mr. C. Pharazyn was elected Chairman.

The Chairman said the Conference knew the objects for which they had met, and he only hoped that their proceedings would be distinguished by the same good feeling and the results be as beneficial as in the case of the meeting of agricultural societies last year. At that meeting every one was ready to receive, with courtesy, the opinions of others, and all were animated with the sole desire of arriving at the truth in order to come to beneficial conclusions. That was what the Conference had met for, and if the delegates discussed the questions coming before it in a similar spirit it would probably do much good. He had lately returned from England, and had found that the state of the trade there was such as had never been experienced before. The trade was undoubtedly a good one, and only needed care and attention to place it on a more satisfactory footing. They must have no wild scheme to do that, but must proceed on sound business lines. So long as those concerned in the meat industry sent a good article they would find a good market. A provisional com- page 3 mittee had preparad a series of resolutions based on the schemes of Messrs. Nathan and Orbell, and he would call upon the former gentleman to move those resolutions, which were as follows:—

"1.	That, the present methods of conducting the frozen-meat trade being unsatisfactory and unprofitable to the sheep farmer, it is desirable that a controlling company representing the various interests concerned be formed for the purposes set forth below:— a. To arrange for the amalgamation, buying-out, or federation of existing freezing companies. b. To negotiate with shipping companies as to freights and kindred matters. c. To inspect, report, and act as to the suitability and class of ships employed in the trade, and in regard to the insulation, &c. d. To attend to grading, insurance, watch the unloading in London, arrange for storage accommodation near port of discharge, and thus enable supply to be regulated, also save many handlings and cost of barges and delays caused thereby. e. To arrange for the concentration of the trade in Great Britain and elsewhere, and to open up new distributing centres. f. To issue debentures for the purchase of existing works, new plant, or establishing other works, and for raising the necessary capital. g. To provide a sinking fund for the repayment of debentures.
2.	That, in order to achieve the objects set forth in the foregoing resolution, this Conference desires the Government to introduce a Bill empowering such company to levy a tax upon all sheep in the colony, the maximum levy in any one year to be per head. Shares to be allocated to each stockholder in proportion to the total amount of his paid-up sheep-tax.
3.	That a committee, consisting of members, be appointed to carry out the above resolutions; such committee to have power to appoint a sub-committee for each Island. The names of the committee to be."

Mr. D. J. Nathan said if he had at any time entertained any doubt as to his justification for endeavouring to excite public interest in the development of the frozen-meat industry, that Conference of representatives from all parts of the colony would have dispelled it. It was exceedingly gratifying to him, and he had no doubt it also was to Mr. Orbell, to find that their efforts on behalf of what might truly be termed a national industry were so widely appreciated as to lead to the calling together of such an influential body of representatives. Speaking for himself, as many present were no doubt aware, his pamphlets on this subject were written more for the consideration of the general public, and to arouse attention on this subject, than to provide a remedy on hard-and-fast lines. After the wide publicity given to the question by the Press of the colony, which on this occasion deserved praise for the manner in which it had dealt with the subject, it would only be necessary for him to touch lightly on some of the more prominent points to be considered by the Conference. He thought they were nearly all agreed that the frozen-meat trade had passed through vicissitudes during the last few years which were anything but encouraging to those most concerned in its welfare and development—namely, the sheepfarmer; and that the outlook, now that they had other competitors, was not by any means reassuring. All knew page 4 that when a business was in a fairly prosperous condition there was a general disposition to leave well enough alone, and that it was only when an unsatisfactory balance-sheet was presented that people shook themselves up, so to speak, and looked more closely into the management of their affairs, As with other branches of commerce, so it should be with the frozen-meat trade. Competition and falling prices had quickened oar perceptions, and inquiry had shown us where many defects in our methods of conducting the business exist. It was with a view to remedy these defects, and to place the trade on a sounder and more remunerative and permanent footing that he had moved in the matter, and now hoped to receive the co-operation and assistance of his fellow-colonists, who, like himself, he took it, were not prepared to sit still and see what had all the elements of a flourishing industry languish for want of a little energy and foresight. They would, indeed, be blind to the colony's interests if they failed to recognise that the complete or even partial collapse of the frozen-meat trade would entail immense loss on all classes of the community, that commerce generally would suffer, that land-values would further contract, that our public revenues would shrink, and that our taxation would become heavier than we could stand. The fate of the flax industry and its subsequent effects should stand for many years an object-lesson in this respect. When they realised the fact that a difference of 1d. per pound in the price of frozen meat represented £500,000 a year to New Zealand, they were brought face to face with the importance of the industry—an industry natural to the soil, and one which it must be evident could no longer be conducted on existing lines if the producer was to get a fair share of the returns. Despite what had been said to the contrary, he asserted that its development so far had been of a haphazard character, as was amply proved by the fact that even after years of experience complaints were heard of inefficient grading, high rates of freights and insurance, faulty handling, inadequate storage, gluts and scarcities, unsatisfactory distribution, and lately ruinous account-sales. This might be deemed to be a somewhat serious indictment against the existing freezing companies, but he did not intend it as such. These companies had no doubt been worked on lines considered to be most conducive to the interests of the shareholders. The defects he had enumerated were due to the want of a concerted plan of action on the part of those engaged in the shipment and sale of the meat, by which its regulation as to quality, time of delivery and quantity had been rendered impossible. Notwithstanding the time that had elapsed since the trade was initiated, they found that New Zealand mutton was practically unknown north of London under its own name, although spasmodic attempt. Had been made to introduce it as New Zealand meat to the notice of one or two of the large towns of England. The fact that for many years millions of carcases annually had been shipped to London was sufficient proof that there were many other large markets in Great Britain which would have taken the meat direct had there been sufficient capital or energy to push the trade. This contention was further borne out by the recent action of businessmen in Manchester, Hull, and Cardiff, who themselves were endeavouring to open up trade with Australia. What applied to Manchester would also apply in greater or less degree to every city in Great Britain, Now, what they had met to-day for was to endeavour to find a remedy for the present unsatisfactory state of things, This, in his opinion, could only be found in combination here and concentration at the other end, for experience taught that where there were divided interests there was necessarily great waste. Our freezing com- page 5 panies being isolated bodies they had been unable to gain the advantages which combination gave. Modern commerce was now conducted on so large ft scale, and the ramifications of powerful companies were so extensive that small concerns could not hope to obtain the concessions in freight, insurance, brokerage, &c., demanded by and conceded to their larger rivals. The best results could only be obtained where large organizations treat with each other. A powerful combination, working on co-operative lines in the interests of the growers, would be strong enough to make better terms with shipping companies, insurance companies, dock companies, and every other interest with which it came into contact. It could regulate the quality, quantity, handling, and time of delivery; it could make better arrangements at or near the docks for storage, and possibly find cheaper ports for discharge and storage on other parts of the English coast. Again, it could arrange for Government inspection, and regulate the shipments on this side, thus preventing the loss entailed on shipping companies by having to send costly steamers all over the colony to pick up a few carcases here and there, save cost of demurrage, avoid gluts, and consequent ruinous prices; and would also be in a position to voice its wishes in respect of suitable steamers, machinery, and insulation. He thought he had said sufficient at the present time to serve as an indication of what a well-equipped company could effect given the necessary support. There were many other points of importance which others no doubt would touch on at a later period. Mr. Ritchie would no doubt lay before the Conference a few particulars as to what Queensland had done for its producers. There was nothing very original in his (Mr. Nathan's) proposal, except the tax; and, if State assistance were invoked in any way, they had innumerable precedents to guide them. The action taken by the Victorian and other Governments alone was sufficient to arouse them from the commercial lethargy into which they had fallen. Putting aside for the moment the possible expansion of the trade, there was every reason to believe that we could get our meat carried under certain conditions, and a subsidy, for a ½d. per pound, and that economies in the management and handling and sale would represent another ½d. per pound; combined, this would mean an immediate saving to the growers of £500,000 per annum, without reckoning the increased value of stock and land.

Assuming, then, that they agreed (1) that the frozen-meat trade was of great importance to the prosperity of New Zealand, (2) that the trade as at present conducted was unsatisfactory to the grower, and (3) that it was capable of great improvement and expansion, it behaved them to consider the best means for giving effect to their desire to see it placed on a sounder and a more remunerative footing. It was not for the Conference to raise difficulties, but to set itself to the task of overcoming them. It would be within their knowledge that from the very first he had not claimed that the scheme set forth in his pamphlets was perfect. On the contrary, he had invited advice and suggestion, and he took it that they were met there that day to ascertain if the representatives of those engaged in this great industry could not devise methods for improving the trade. If they separated from the Conference without doing anything they would be admitting that they were helpless to combat the influences which were hampering what promised to be almost from its initiation the most important and legitimate industry of the colony; they must prepare to see the farming interests languish as they had done in the Mother-country, and they must make up their minds for a great fall in the values of real estate. The responsibility resting upon them was therefore very great, page 6 and must impel them to give due weight and consideration to proposals, from whatever source they came, having the necessary element of success within them. Let them remember that-it was always easier to destroy than to build up, and that a mere difference of opinion as to details did not necessarily involve the rejection of principles. The great difficulty in any scheme of financial magnitude was the raising of capital, but in this matter of the frozen-meat industry the difficulty was further enhanced by the fact that to insure success the capital must be raised by and be employed in the interests of the sheepgrower. The company must be worked on advanced and co-operative lines, the speculative element being eliminated. To benefit the grower by expansion of the trade and economical management must be the primary concern. To insure this he had to submit a scheme which might commend itself to the judgment of the Conference, but which, of course, was subject to whatever modifications might be considered desirable. He had the best reason to believe that his scheme was capable of accomplishment given the advice and assistance of a few experienced men. They would observe that a sheep-tax was the essential feature. His reasons for making it so was that it was manifestly unfair that the more energetic settlers, who in the past had done so much, should witness the fruits of their enterprise reaped by men who were selfish enough to stand by and wait for their ripening; and the sheep-rate was the only effective way of reaching these people. The rise in the price of freezers affected the value of all sheep in the colony. Any reduction in expenses such as freight, insurance, storage, Ac, increased the net result to the grower, and consequently improved the price of sheep. He contended, therefore, that all sheep should be taxed, as all would be enhanced in value, and the cost of any endeavours to secure such improvement in prices should not continue to fall entirely on the shoulders of the enterprising man. It had been urged that there should be some differentiation in the tax with regard to the classes of sheep, especially merinos, but that was a detail which might merit attention later on, as also a proposal which had been made to include cattle in the tax, in favour of which a great deal could be said, as cattle must share in any benefit. Conferred by better shipping terms and storage and distribution arrangements. At the present time their chief concern was the adoption of a principle, the details of which might be reserved for future consideration. For the purpose of bringing about the combination in New Zealand which he considered essential, it might be found necessary to buy out all or a certain number of the present freezing companies, and perhaps to erect other works. To find the capital he suggested that the sheepfarmeres should agree to the passing of an Act similar to that in force in Queensland, empowering a controlling Board of representative farmers to levy a sheep-rate; the maximum sum per head to be fixed by statute, and the term of its enforcement. With this tax as a basis, if not fixed at too low a rate per sheep, finance would be easy: 3d. per head would give £250,000 per annum, l½d. per head would give £125,000 per annum. A Board with power to levy even to the latter amount would be in a position financially strong enough to complete the purchase of any of the present freezing companies thought necessary or desirable. Debentures could be issued on the security of a tax, and money borrowed even without the Government guarantee, and cash payments could be made here where necessary for any works purchased. As the sheepfarmer paid the tax (to be levied at the discretion of his own representative, both as to amount and time) he should receive shares fully or partly paid up, for the amount of his payment. If only a purely advanced business were done, there could page 7 not be a loss on trading account: the only deduction from the tax could be for the coat of expanding the trade. If the company decided that the whole of the sheep in the colony should bear the whole or portion of the expense incurred in finding new markets, a portion of the tax might be placed to the credit of the trading account, so that the freezers would not bear the whole of the expense. As the tax was paid shares could be issued to the sheepfarrner, so that in course of time the owners of the sheep would be the owners of the freezing companies in proportion to the number of sheep owned by each. The debentures would eventually be repaid, and the debt or liability would be turned into shares or assets When this was achieved the tax could (at the discretion of the farmers) cease, except for any sum decided upon as necessary for employment in expanding the market or guaranteeing a dividend. The shares, or a proportion, might (if thought advisable) be made preference shares as to dividend, or carry a guaranteed minimum dividend, so that these shares would always have a ready market if a sheepfarmer desired to sell or to use them for financial purposes. At the same time, he considered it essential that power by statute should be given to the directors to limit the number of shares to be held by non-sheepfarmers during the continuance of the sheep-rate, say, to 30 per cent. This was suggested to avoid the risk of the company being made a speculative or commercial business. If the shares and control passed out of the hands of the farmer, then, in his opinion, the tax should cease, so far as the shares were concerned. By guaranteeing a certain interest on a proportion of the shares the burden of the tax would fall much lighter on the farmer, as he could sell readily or finance in other ways with his shares. It could hardly be doubted that a company, such as he proposed, would at once save in freights the sum of £135,000, equal to 1½d. per head on every sheep in the colony; so that (ha sheep-rate, from a colonial point of view, would be paid by the saving in freights and not by the farmers. In discussing this question this point had always to he kept in sight. Other savings would be possible both in the colony and at Home, but as these were uncertain they need not reckon them, but with freights it was different. This saving could be mad. This was but a bare outline of his scheme, and he did not feel competent single-handed to enter into greater detail. At any rate, until the farmers had accepted the principle of a sheep-rate the outline he had given was sufficient. He had to thank them for the patient hearing they had given to him, and would move the adoption of the resolutions of the provisional committee.

Mr. Orbell seconded the resolutions pro formâ, as there were several portions of Mr. Nathan's scheme that he did not agree with. He thought that they would all admit that the discussion upon which they were entering was of very great importance to every settler in New Zealand. Next to the wool trade, the frozen-meat trade ranked first in importance, and if the Conference could propound any scheme by which they could improve (hat trade they would fully justify the Government in convening the Conference. Some few months ago he had read a paper on the frozen-meat industry, which had not been very widely distributed, and therefore many of the delegates, perhaps, had not seen it; but the views expressed in that paper were written rather with the anticipation that some good might come out of them than that they would be carried into effect. He was not wedded to those views, and would be happy to support any scheme propounded to put the frozen-meat industry on a better basis. He hoped that before separating they would have some such resolutions passed for effecting that object. One of the chief reasons for the fluctuation in page 8 prices at Home was want of system. At present they had no system, and, if they could establish a system to regulate the market, both as to quantity and quality, and adopt a better method for reaching the consumer by establishing a regular supply, they would establish a regular demand. Then they would have something tangible to work upon. Up to the present time nothing had been attempted in this direction. They had simply to freeze the meat and send it Home. They must take steps to place the industry on a basis that would not admit of any abuse. They bad heard of abuses in the London market, to which he was not going to refer except for a minute or two. Some of these abuses were well founded, but some people had such a simplicity of mind that they would not admit that there were any abuses. However, he contended that if they went to work in a straightforward manner they could accomplish their object of putting the industry on the basis they desired. He thought they required to retain control of the meat, and to do that it was necessary to place it in the hands of a controlling company. They wanted to regulate supplies, and, if they did that, they would accomplish their object, and not otherwise, As illustrating some of the difficulties to be overcome, he would read one or two extracts, Mr. Lowe, in a speech delivered at the pastoralists' conversazione held in Sydney recently, said; "Now I wish to say a few words in reference to the irregular arrival of ships. Sometimes we could make large contracts of meat, to be delivered regularly right through the year, with certain institutions or other large buyers, if we could only guarantee its arrival. This, however, we cannot do We do not know when it is going to arrive, and we cannot, therefore, place a contract. The moment you can insure the regularity of arrival you will open up another branch of business which will be very beneficial to you. You will know for a long time forward that you can dispose of your produce without any bother or trouble at all, because contracts will be entered into for a long period. There is another matter in reference to which I would like to say a word or two, I have noted it down as Concentration of Shipments.' . . . 'At the present time in London by splitting consignments up you are unduly depreciating the price of meat, and the public are getting the benefit of the reduction... The London correspondent of the Australasian Pastoralists' Review asked Mr. Edward Nelson, the resident partner of Messrs, James Nelson and Sons, " if the Plate trade had difficulties as to storing, irregularity of shipments, &c, as with the colonial business." It appears not. His firm have five steamers, and their own cold stores in Liverpool and London. There are only four Plate houses in the trade, and they have all the processes in their own hands, both abroad and in London. Owing to well-ordered business, the meat as it comes is sold, and there does not seem to be any pressure on the stores. Then, again, we have Mr. Weddell, who says, "Useful work might at present be found for a frozen-meat importers' association which had the support of the entire trade; but, in the absence of any controlling organization, there seems no other course open than for this competition to run its course until stocks are brought within more manageable compass." Messrs. Fitter, referring to the same subject, say, " It is simply ruinous to shippers, and supplies will have to be better regulated in future," He thought the extracts he had made would show fairly well the difficulties they were contending with. There was a rise in the market during the last English autumn, but that was simply the result of an understanding between the salesmen, and lasted for a short time only, because the smaller consignees could not hold the meat, and forced prices page 9 down to an outrageous value. There had been another rise as the result of understanding between the salesmen at Home, but immediately an extra quantity of mutton reached the market the prices would again collapse. They had what was called unrestricted competition, also unrestricted rivalry, amongst the sellers, for the consignees could not arrange as to the amount of meat to be put upon the market at one time. In dealing with this question they could not hope to satisfy all people. Conflicting interests were continually being discovered, to the injury of the producer. These difficulties would not be overcome except by action on the part of the exporters themselves. If the present freezing companies would federate they could deal effectively with the question, and it would be the best thing they could do for themselves. If they could agree to work the trade on a system it would not only be profitable to themselves but also to the whole colony-It was the main question before the Conference, and he would much prefer some arrangement being come to by the freezing companies than that the trade should continue to be worked as at present. He knew there was some conflict of interests in connection with the freezing companies but be hoped they would see some possibility of arriving at an arrangement. He earnestly hoped the Conference would not separate without being able to say they had been able to do some good for the trade-If the freezing companies could not enter into any arrangement amongst themselves, then it would be necessary to fall back on some such scheme as that proposed, by which one organization could be formed to regulate and manage the whole trade j but ho would much prefer the freezing companies doing it, and contended that they could. They had about two million sheep annually exported from the colony, and these should be confined to one agency at Home, and kept distinct from any other agency representing Australia or any other place. New Zealand had the best mutton, and could establish, without doubt, the highest rate ruling. Of course it would be better to sand their meat to other ports than to dump it all down in London, but hitherto conflicting interests had prevented this being done, except to a very limited extent. One thing necessary was a system of uniform grading. We all knew that a great deal of meat had been sent Home which was not fit for dogs meat, and a system of uniform grading was one easy of accomplishment, and one the necessity for which must be patent to every mind. The Gear Company had had a brand for years, and it was well known. It was the same with the Belfast Company. He proposed that all the companies should grade their meat, and then if any company did not grade it properly that meat would be boycotted: mother words, it would meet with a poor sale. They had no guarantee that if the meat continued to go into its present channels of distribution there would be any prospect of a rise in the market unless as the result of an unfortunate drought in Australia, A gentleman had asked him the previous day, "Why not leave the meat question alone? It will be all night presently. We are going to have a drought in Australia, and the North Island works are going to shut down." Of course, he was a South-Islander. If we were going to take that view how were we going to extend the trade? He knew they could not send meat Home from the North Island under present arrangements; why not then establish (orne system under which all would benefit? Another objection he had to the present method was the employment as agents of a trading company. Recent cable messages had reported that a co-operative produce-distributing company had been formed, and he was assured for a fact that that particular company was trading and competing with our sheep.

The Chairman: No.

Mr. Orbell said the Chairman said "No," but he had had it on high authority that there had been considerable purchases made. If so, that company could not expect to receive the support of the sheepfarmers generally. At the annual meeting of the Chamber of Commerce at Dunedin a remark was made by the president, Mr. A. G, Begg, in relation to this company. He said, "I look with considerable apprehension on the attempts being made by a large firm already in the trade to secure practical monopoly of the frozen-meat business. I am of opinion that if these attempts are successful, a fatal blow will be struck, not only at the interests of our sheep-growers, but at the general prosperity of the colony." This was an extract from the Otago Daily Times. Whether that company was trading or not he was not prepared to say, further than that he was told on excellent authority that they had been buying largely in the South Island. He did not know whether they had been in the North Island. If that was so, that was not the company the colony wanted to support, because they came directly into conflict with our own interests; that must be patent to all. There was one difficulty in regard to the resolutions, and that was that they had to look forward to the chilling process. That was a very important point. He was of opinion that before very long they would be sending their mutton Home chilled. Chilling works would require some alteration in their present machinery, and supposing any attempt were made to purchase freezing works it would need care in valuation, because some of the works had obsolete machinery, which, instead of two or three tons, consumed from ten to twelve tons of coal per day. One thing was very clear to his mind—namely, that if the chilling system was coming into force there ought to be some attempt to meet that trade at Home, or else it would go into the same channels as the frozen meat. They would also have to regulate the shipments, because, as was perfectly well known, chilled meat would not keep in the same state as frozen meat, and therefore it would be a matter of necessity to regulate the quality of the sheep and the number they sent away. Again, he did not think the freezing companies paid the attention to the loading of vessels they ought to do. He had seen, himself, a quantity of legs of mutton thrown out of a truck on to the deck of a steamer, a sail being spread to receive them; fifty were counted when the sail was drawn together by the four corners, pulled up and lowered on to the first deck below, where it was unhooked, and two men took a corner and dragged it over the hatchway, and the legs were shot down no one knew how many feet—certainly a great many—like sacks of coal, and they made as much noise as coal would do. Could any one argue for a moment that that was the proper way to load meat? The calico must have been torn off and the shanks destroyed. He had seen the meat handled that way himself, and he presumed that that was the way a great deal of it was handled, both in the colony and at Home, The barge system at Home he had been told was a most unsatisfactory way of unloading the mutton in the Thames. The mutton was put into these barges, which were entirely dependent on the tides; the meat was often exposed to the sun for hours, and consequently they often heard that it arrived in bad condition! They ought to have the cool storage as close to the ports as possible. The freight question was a burning one. They had hoard recently that the freezing companies had negotiated for a reduction to ¾d. in the winter, the freight to remain at 1d. during the summer. Be thought if they had arranged for a three-farthing freight all round it would page 11 have been more satisfactory, and he believed it could have been done. He looked forward to the time—not very far distant—when they would have a lower freight than ¾d. We had vessels now engaged which were entirely dependent on the meat trade to keep them afloat in these waters, and some of them were totally unfit to take our meat. They were too expensive, and too luxuriantly fitted up. We wanted what were called cargo vessels. They had vessels employed in the Australasian frozen-meat trade with a carrying capacity of six and a half million sheep per annum, and all they took last year was 3,833,000, so that they Lad space to carry 70 per cent, more sheep than they did carry. Who had to pay for all this waste space? The frozen meat had to pay for it. There were too many vessels at present employed in the trade, and of too high a value too. We could do very well with a cheaper class of vessels and with a very much cheaper freight, The freezing companies bad taken credit for reducing freights by farthing, but in Victoria the Government took the matter up and called for tenders for freight. In two days they had a local tender, and within two more days the Agent General at Home had other two tenders at reduced rates; so that it would be seen that this question of freights was only a question of negotiation. We had so long been accustomed to the Shaw-Savill and the New Zealand Shipping Companies that few thought of going beyond them. He would be the last in that room to deal unfairly with those companies, for they had been of very great service to the colony. The number of high-class passenger-boats had outgrown our requirements; but if they would not treat us fairly upon this question it was our interest to endeavour to get the meat carried as cheaply as possible, We had only to go to Hull, Liverpool, and other shipping ports, and hold up a finger, when we should have half a dozen companies offering to do this trade, provided the meat export was under the control of one organization, or if the freezing companies would federate, as suggested, and negotiate in the interests of the producer. These cargo vessels could take Home from 80,000 to 100,000 carcases at 601b. per carcase, making £20,000 a trip, and, estimating that they made two trips and a half a year, that was equal to £50,000 a year. As the value of these boats was only some £70,000 or £80,000 each, it would be seen that they could well afford to come out in coal-ballast to take our meat Home. They had been told that if this scheme was carried out there would be any amount of leakage. There was leakage in all businesses. What was the leakage now in this trade? Had not the bottom fallen out of it? It had been a ghastly failure so far, and unless we adopted some other method of carrying on the trade we should k unable to send our meat away. He did not look upon the present rise in values as permanent at all. The supply was no doubt short on account of the state of the Australian market. He sincerely hoped that something would result from this Conference. He was glad to hear the Chairman remark that he hoped we should all treat each other's remarks in a courteous way. He (Mr. Orbell) had heard a mild insinuation made that he had a base motive for moving in this matter. He scorned to give an answer to such an insinuation. His motives had been of the purest character. He simply wanted to keep up the price of sheep, not only for his own benefit, but for the benefit of the colony. That was his sole object. They were going to reduce the freight by ¼d. He thought they should reduce it by ½d., and that would mean a saving of £250,000 per annum; and, until it was reduced by ½d., he would not be satisfied. The freezing companies had great power and could effect many of the necessary reforms in the trade, and if the resolutions were rejected he hoped they would page 12 seriously take up the question; failing which, sheepowners would be compelled to take further action themselves. They could not afford to continue throwing away half a million a year, as they were now doing.

Mr. Mackintosh, M.H.R., said he had given great consideration to the question under discussion, and thought both of the previous speakers had failed to find out the disease. There was nothing wrong in the conduct of the trade in the colony, and the freezing companies were doing very well The difficulty was in Loudon, where the middlemen made all the profit, It would need intelligence and plenty of means to effect the reforms required, and if anything was done it should include all the produce in the colony, The measures taken must be on a different basis to that proposed, and must include all the produce and every producer in the colony. The proposed tax was out of the question. They did not require to purchase the freezing works, because there was nothing wrong with them nor with the vessels employed. He had been informed that Nelson Brothers weft trying to get at the millions, and, if they could do it, why should not a more powerful association be formed in the colony? The Conference should endeavour to establish that association, otherwise their meeting together would be of no earthly use. They should take a wider view of the question. Every producer should be called upon to take a share in the association. If a sheepfarmer had 500 sheep he should be called upon to take one shave; if he had 1,000 sheep he should take two shares, and so on. Unquestionably, if they wanted to get a good price for their produce they must form a powerful association in the colony, not only to get a market in the Mother-country, but to endeavour to get one on the Continent of Europe. Without leaving Great Britain they had a market for ten times the quantity they could produce; but in order to get that the consumer must be reached over the heads of the middlemen, and the produce sold at a moderate price. If that were done, our difficulty then would be to send sufficient produce to meet the demand. The working-men at Home did not use our meat because it was too dear. It had been sold sufficiently cheap to reach the millions, but the middlemen took good care that the working-men did not get it at a low price. He was glad the Conference had met, and trusted the matter would be discussed with a view to adopting the best means of arriving at a satisfactory conclusion. He did not want any Government endorsement whatever. If the producers would not spend enough to put the trade on a proper footing they deserved to suffer, but he believed a powerful association could be formed in the colony to do what was required. It would not be necessary to call up the whole capital of such an association. They could make the shares £5 each; £1 to be called up at once, and the remainder at the rate of £ 1 per annum. They should not limit their operations to frozen meat, but should include every kind of colonial produce. It was in this respect that he thought Nelson Brothers had made a mistake. He maintained that shops should be opened at Home for the sale of everything produced at a market price. He thoroughly believed that if the Conference investigated the matter, and followed it up by establishing the association on the lines he proposed, great benefit would spring from their meeting, A great deal of credit was due to Mr. Nathan for che manner in which he had brought the matter before the public, and mainly because it had resulted in the meeting of the Conference that day.

The Hon. T. Fergus said he opined that what they had met for was to consider the resolutions brought down by the sub-committee, and to express concurrence or otherwise with them. Before touching on the resolutions, perhaps he might be allowed to compliment Mr. Nathan for page 13 the great labour he had undertaken, and for the clear way in which he had put had views before the Conference and the country; and he might also include Mr. Orbell It was due to these gentlemen he thought, that this Conference of representatives of those engaged in stock-raising had been called. While saying that, however, he entirely disagreed with the resolutions which had been placed before the Conference. He disagreed with them from the fundamental point of the increased tax which they proposed to put on the stock-raiser throughout the colon v. He was voicing the wishes of the Otago Agricultural and Pastoral Association when he said they did not want any further tax put on sheep, and he thought he was voicing also the opinions of all the small runholders and seepfarmers in the colony. Threepence per head on sheep, especially merino sheep, would mean absolute ruin to the flockowners. Mr. Nathan had been good enough to lay his views before the farmers in Dunedin, He (Mr. Fergus) had afterwards seen those farmers, and had not heard one single word of commendation of the scheme from them; but, on the contrary, every one he had spoken to had condemned it, and especially the proposal to put the trade under Government control and to promote a Bill for a guarantee. It meant more Government interference; and they said that the less Government interfered in these matters the better it would be for the people. They did not want another Government department set up; and if they objected to these things the scheme fell to the ground. There was, no doubt, a great deal of truth in what had been said about the grave difficulties and disabilities which had in the past been attendant on the frozen-meat trade. The handling and distribution required to be looked into, and it was the duty of the freezing companies and the Stock Department to see that these difficulties were remedied; but it was quite another thing to say that this was to be done by Government interference, He thought the stockowners in the country and those interested in the freezing companies were more able to overcome these difficulties than the State was, and for these reasons he we aid be prepared by-and-by to support an amendment to the effect that, in the opinion of the Conference, it was undesirable that any tax should be levied on the stockowners and for the amalgamation of these companies. He had to enter his protest against the scheme which had been brought forward.

He thought, with the Hon. Mr. Fergus, that both Mr. Nathan and Mr. Orbell were to be commended for taking so much interest in the frozen-meat business. There was no doubt that it had proved to be one of the page 14 most important matters in connection with the trade and industries of the colony, and it was desirable that the question should be discussed as fully as it possibly could be, so that the conclusions arrived at might be for the benefit of the whole community. They all wanted to get a higher price for their sheep, and the question before them was how could that object be attained with the lowest possible risk and the lowest possible expenditure. Although Mr. Nathan and Mr. Orbell had taken a great deal of trouble to put their views before the Conference, he held that some of the statements made were of too alarmist a character. The frozen-meat trade was not in a state of collapse: in fact, it was in a thriving condition. The sheepowners in Otago could sell their sheep at as high a figure as from 15s. to 16s. a head. He was taking the present position of the frozen-meat trade, which was represented to be in a state-of collapse. They had had thirteen years' experience of this industry, during which period there had been ups and downs, but on the whole he thought the prices had been satisfactory. The Messrs, Wed dell had shown that the average price for six years was 4d. per pound, and if the colony could get an average of 4d. per pound it would do very well, without risking what was proposed in the resolutions. The freezing companies had succeeded in getting the shipping companies to reduce the freight to ¾d. per pound in the winter months, and he believed that that had been done mainly by Mr. Martin, of Turnbull, Martin, and Co. When we were selling the mea. on a 2d. freight, Messrs. Turnbull, Martin, and Co. came in and built steamers, which reduced the price to l½d. per pound, and that company had now large vessels employed, which were able to carry the meat at the lowest rates possible. He believed they were largely indebted to Mr. Martin for the present reduction in freight. If we could get 4d. a pound, and our charges were no more than 1½d. a pound, that would leave a margin of 2½d. per pound in the colony. The first cargo of frozen meat which was sold in the colony was taken away by the "Sorrento," for which the owners got 2d. per pound; but the net return under present prices at Home were very much better than that, and as time went on there would no doubt be reduced charges. But we could not get them per saltum; the charges must be gradually reduced by evolution in the trade, and we were now getting them reduced in a very satisfactory way. The statement had been made that New Zealand frozen meat was practically unknown north of London. There was plenty of New Zealand frozen meat sold in Birmingham and other places under its own name, and it did not leave a large profit to the retailers. That was also the case in London. No doubt there were special districts where the retailers had made in inordinate profit, but that had only been in comparatively few instances. Any one who had been lately in London would have seen in Bishop sgate Street, Leaden hall Street, and other places, New Zealand frozen mutton ticketed up, the hind legs being sold at 6d. per pound, and that price only left a very small profit to-the retailer for the other portions of the carcase. There was an article in the August number of the Australasian Pastoralists' Review, under the head of "Inquiry into the Retail Mear Trade," in London, which was written by the London correspondent in June, wherein he asked this question, " What happens to the Australian mutton after it has reached the portals of Smithfield—who buys it? What does he give for it? Where and when does he sell it? What does he get for it? And the final link in the chain, the man upon whom we all depend, the consumer, who is he, and under what conditions does he become the proud possessor of a frozen leg of colonial mutton? These are vital queries indeed to the seeker after truth, and no man who aspires page 15 to go rather deeply into the business of frozen meats can afford to leave them alone." The writer was an Australian, and he showed that the retailers were not making inordinate profits by any means. He went to several places in the East End of London, where a large trade was done. He said, "The shop of Mr. Austen, Bermondsey, New Road, was all ablaze with lights; a myrmidon was standing in front hooking down legs of mutton from the facade, festooned with these and other joints. After being weighed they were thrown aside, where a young woman calculated the price, took the money, and packed the joint with inconceivable rapidity, About two hundred sheep (frozen) per week are cut up at this shop with frozen beef and chilled; legs of mutton—the standard to go by—were marked at 3d. per pound and 3½d." Then he went on to say: The butcher gives 8s. 6d. in Smithfied for 481b. of mutton at 21/8d., and the outturn is as follows:—

	s.	d.
Legs, 13lb. at 3½d.	3	9½
Shoulders, 10lb. at 3d.	2	6
Loins, 8lb. at 2¼d.	1	6
Breasts, 6lb. at 1d.	0	6
Neck, 10lb. at 1d.	0	10
Making an aggregate of	9	1½

showing Is. 6d, as the profit of the carcase. Mr. Mackintosh had told them that the working-man in England did not get cheap meat, but he (Mr. Begg) thought he had proved that he did get cheap meat, and it was an enormous boon to the working-classes of England to get the frozen meat from these colonies. With regard to the proposal to start a large company which would take up the whole meat trade of the colony and in England, he quite agreed with what the Hon. Mr. Fergus had said. He did not believe that Canterbury and Otago would consent for one moment to be taxed in the way proposed by this scheme, and, as Mr. Nathan had said that the tax was the crux of the whole scheme, if they could not get the sheepfarmers to consent to be taxed the whole scheme would break down. They all knew in New Zealand what these large companies meant. They had had the Loan and Mercantile Company, which went into business of all kinds, with its ramifications alt over the country, and they knew what the result had been. And if they were to get such a large company and go into England they would be alienating a large body of men whose co-operation was wanted. It was to the sheepfarmers interest to help these people make a reasonable profit, and they must not grudge them that profit. If they were making a Urge profit they would not be allowed to retain it very long on account of the competition at Home. If this frozen-meat business was such a profitable thing at Home, as some people of the colony endeavoured to make out, the profits would soon be cut down, and the wholesale price page 16 would rise. He held, and the people in Dunedin held, that the object the sheepfarrners should have in view was to induce buyers to come to the colony and buy direct from the producers. They had that now, and had had it in the past, with slight breaks. The farmer did not want to go into all these commercial speculations and risks; he wanted a fair price for his sheep, and the purchasers would look after their own interests. The consignor was the man they must look to to send his meat to the proper agents. There was no doubt that a great deal of mischief had been done by the sending of sheep to men who could not hold them, and who thus brought down the whole of the prices. Means should be devised to remedy this. With regard to grading, his company had graded all their meat, which, consequently, had the preference; they could sell their mutton when other companies could not. The Belfast Company had also gone in for grading, and if this Conference passed resolutions directing that the freezing companies should be invited to agree upon i uniform system of grading a great deal of good might be done. When he was in London he took a day to inspect the Smithfield market, and there saw a number of lambs which were only fit for dogs' meat and nothing more. And the result was this: that these lambs not only suffered in price, but they brought down the price of the other lambs in the market, and the price came down to 3d. a pound. If they had a system of grading it would do a great deal to steady the price, and would prevent one company damaging the whole trade. It was known that last year, for the six months ending June, 1895, there were 1,300,000 carcases sent Home; while for the same period of the previous year there were only 860,000, which showed an increase of over 50 per cent, in the one year. That increase, of course, glutted the market, and naturally brought down the prices. Since then the prices had begun to work up again, and at the present time they were getting a very fair price indeed. It would be & mistake to adopt the suggestion in the resolutions before the Conference, to the effect that the storage accommodation should be increased in England. England was not the place to increase the storage accommodation; New Zealand was the place. If they had had storage accommodation here the price would never have gone down, because the market would have been properly fed. There was no necessity to send such a large quantity on to the Loudon market at one time. They could regulate the shipments by having larger storage accommodation in the colony, and he maintained it would pay other freezing companies in the colony to retain a sufficient quantity of mutton to spread the consignments over the year instead of concentrating them within five or six months. If this were done prices would not be at the mercy of those who had the sheep to dispose of at short notice, and would keep the market very much steadier than it had been in the past.

Mr. T. Mackenzie, M.H.R., seconded the amendment.

Mr. Buddo, M.H.R., said, as representatives of the various associations to which they belonged, they ought to feel grateful to the gentlemen who had brought the proposals so prominently before the public as to canse the farming community to induce the Government to call this Conference. That there were difficulties in distributing the meat he thought they were all agreed, but he also thought that all could take very considerable exception to the proposals laid before them. The resolutions formulated by the provisional Committee, of which he had the honour of being a member, pretty fairly put forth the views held by Mr. Nathan and Mr. Orbell. These gentlemen had brought a considerable amount of information before the Committee, and had fairly borne page 17 out what had been before the public and the Press of the colony. But, personally, he had to take exception to almost the whole of the proposals! His instructions by those who had sent him to the Conference were to object as strongly as possible to the proposals. They wished the Government to have nothing to do with bringing forward a Bill, and considered that the proposals would act detrimentally to the interests of the producer. They were also strongly of opinion that it was not a case calling for Government interference: that was the purport of the resolutions passed by his directors in Christchurch. There were difficulties in the way of forming any scheme for amalgamating the freezing companies in the colony, and the great stumbling-block was the financial footing which the various freezing companies were on. Some were flourishing and paying excellent dividends, while others were so over-weighted by inefficient machinery and liabilities that loss would become inevitable to (he public, and more especially to those companies which were in a strong position. He thought that was the strong point against the proposals. He did not want to look at the matter from a parish point of view, or he might call attention to the price at which Canterbury meat was quoted in the market in order to show that the position of the companies was different. It was a fact that the primest of our meat was undoubtedly sold by the middleman as of English production; and there was not the slightest doubt that our best lambs when they got large in size were sold as Welsh, and therefore brought a high price and came into competition with the highest-priced meat in the English market. That was to be looked at as affecting the large distributing-centres, and provided a strong objection to a general tax on every head of sheep in the colony, which would be a most unfair proposal. How to differentiate between those who would benefit by a tax of this sort and those who would not he was unable to say. Again, there were individual sheepowners who had no personal interest in the progressive distribution of our meat on the English market. Their business was wool-growing and that atone. Then, there were other farmers who grew a few lambs in the spring, and put them on the New Zealand market, and had nothing. Whatever to do with the English market, and yet these would have to pay the tax; and how they were going to differentiate between them he did not know. The frozen-meat trade was progressing, and they had reports from time to time which went to show that it was progressing to a very considerable degree. It had been asserted that if the meat were put more prominently before the public they would buy more; but it was almost impossible to get people to buy meat if they had not the money to pay for it; and, moreover, a demand almost invariably created a supply. Some Speakers had ignored the fact that New Zealand was a comparatively small contributor to the English meat market. The amount of meat received in England from other parts of the world was something enormous; and we ought to get away from this little parish view that we were almost the sole contributors, which was fallacious. It had to be expected that from time to time the market would be glutted by excessive arrivals from other colonies, from the Argentine, and other parts of South America. It was the latter place we had to fear. The Argentine frozen meat and live-stock had developed in the ratio of more than three to one during the past three years. We should, therefore, have glutted markets at times irrespective of whether we sent our meat in larger quantities at one time than at another. Mr. Orbell had made a point of the necessity for grading our meat before it left New Zealand, and it was creditable to him, seeing that he came from a part of the colony page 18 which produced a high grade of meat. It was very easy to understand that individual interests would be sunk if we got into a system of grading the meat as New Zealand, for we should lose sight of the fact that Canterbury meat was worth ½d. a pound more than that of the other provinces of the colony. He would mention a few points referred to in Mr. Jameson's letter to the New Zealand Farmers' Association, Christchurch. This gentleman was appointed to represent the New Zealand Farmers' Association, Christchurch, the South Canterbury Farmers' Association, and the Hawke's Bay Farmers' Association, in London, to push the sale of our products generally, and especially to pay attention to the distribution of our frozen meat in England. Mr. Jameson made a visit to Leeds on the 28th June, and, among others, called on a Mr. Ambler, who told him that he had sold American chilled beef and New .Zealand mutton in small quantities for some time, but was honest enough to admit that he had not marked it as such nor told his customers, the reason being that he feared that if he did so they would decline to have any more of it. There was at present in Leeds an icehouse capable of storing 3,000 sheep, but on visiting it Mr. Jameson found it was principally used for the supply of ice. He found later on that the Corporation were considering the question of erecting expensive cool-stores, near the market, capable of holding 100,000 sheep. On the 1st of July Mr. Jameson left Leeds for Manchester, and was there introduced to the firm of McKerrow and Pease colonial produce brokers, 17, Corn Exchange Buildings. Mr. Jameson writes: "This firm has in the past been selling principally cheap South American and second-class New Zealand mutton, but I gathered that the trade had not altogether proved satisfactory. In company with Mr. McKerrow I visited the cool-storey situated a mile from the centre of the town. The building is a most substantial one, built on the most approved plan with every modern convenience for handling meat, and kept in perfect order and cleanliness. It is capable of holding 100,000 carcases, but has never been anything like full since it was erected." So that the Conference would see that in Manchester at least more storage was available than was required, hi speaking of the Smith field market, London, Mr. Jameson said that meat showed a first-class demand. "The carcases shipped should show plenty of solid flesh, with fairly firm bone, not too fat. They will sell well up to 701b., although, perhaps, 601b. to 651b. sheep may be considered the moat saleable. Butchers do not want the weight made up with fat, but do not object to moderately heavy sheep if made up of the right quality. It is frequently stated in Smithfield market that during the past two years South American sheep have much improved, while the New Zealand sheep have deteriorated in the same proportion. This may be a slight exaggeration, but nevertheless there is sufficient truth in the statement to act as a warning to all stockowners in New Zealand not to allow their flocks to run down, and also to freezing companies to exercise more care in the classing of sheep sent into their works." In conclusion, Mr. Jameson, speaking generally, says, " The meat is fairly distributed around London, and is finding its way to Leeds, Manchester, Liverpool, and other large centres. At the same time, there is much still to be done in bringing the article more directly before consumers. A very small proportion of them know that there is such a thing as New Zealand frozen mutton and lamb. The trade is not without hopeful signs. The butchers are more favourably inclined to the meat than they were. Now customers are, I learn, applying to the wholesale salesmen each week, and those that a short time ago took small quantities are increasing their orders. This is in itself a hopeful sign, and must continue, as the demand increases, to improve page 19 and steady prices, and, at the same time, make the demand more regular." These were the principal points in Mr. Jameson's letter, which arrived during the previous week. One other point he (Mr. Buddo) wished to mention was one spoken of by Mr. Begg, who said the stores were not required in London, but were very much required here, as our farmers could not keep their sheep fat. This was a step in the wrong direction, for it would keep the price of sheep very much down. Very few sheep indeed were sent away during the winter months. The principal output was during the summer months, and if the stores were filled by the North bland sheep it would compel the Canterbury and Otago producers to resort to artificial feeding, which cost a great deal more money, without adequate return. A large supply was required in London, and if the stores were kept here we should not be able to keep up a regular supply it the proper time. Therefore it would act very unfairly, and put those who had to produce this article in the winter months at a very considerable disadvantage. The amendment proposed by Mr. Begg was very much to the purpose, and was comprehensive enough to meet anything, Be had drawn out an amendment which he hoped might be added to Mr. Begg's amendment, setting out that, in the opinion of the Conference, the freezing companies should continue to provide storage in London. He did not know whether it would be accepted, but ho thought it was a step in the right direction.

Mr. Begg said he was afraid he could not add that to his amendment, as his impression was very strong that it would be suicidal on the part of the freezing companies to provide storage in London. What we had to do was to see that the supplies did not glut the market. If we had had storage accommodation in the colony to store 200,000 or 300,000 of those sheep during May and June he did not think we should have had the prices down to within a 1d. a pound of what they actually were. We should have sufficient storage in the colony during the first six months of the year, as there was no fear of inordinate supplies going Home after the month of June.

Mr. T. Mackenzie said when figures were quoted about the increased production in the Argentine, or any other place, they might just as well be correct. He found the total increase in the supply at Home was 27,600cwt., and the total increase from New Zealand alone was 20,040cwt., almost equal to the total; while the total increase of Argentina, instead of being three or four times as much, was 62,000cwt, on a quantity representing 359,000cwt.

Mr. Buddo said he had referred to dead meat and live-stock.

The Chairman said Mr. Buddo might, if he so desired, bring up his amendment at the end of the discussion on Mr. Begg's amendment.

Mr. W. Nelson said that other speakers had expressed so exactly what he himself would have said that the Conference would be spared a great deal of what he otherwise would have said. Mr. Begg had particularly expressed the views he would have given utterance to had he been speaking in front of him. The proposal for a large scheme, involving a threepenny tax on sheep and a complete upheaval of the existing institutions, would have such an effect that it was quite unnecessary for him to say much about that scheme. It was a scheme that be unhesitatingly said was unworkable, and the only point of any importance be would refer to was the winding-up remark of Mr. Nathan that he was not competent to enter into the details. He thought it was too preposterous that they should attempt to pass resolutions of such an enormous magnitude without the most minute details. He was called "a detail man," page 20 and his opinion was that arty scheme was first-rate and had nothing at all the matter with it until you came to the details, and then all the rosy things in connection with it disappeared under that test. It was assumed that if these alterations were made the scheme must necessarily succeed that there could not be a weak point in it anywhere; but he could not conceive any conditions such as had been suggested being seriously considered There had been good men all over the colony, a great number of-whom were interested in the frozen-meat trade, and were pretty well known, and there were good men in London, who had been taking the keenest interest in the trade for the last thirteen years, and they had produced a trade which, to his mind, was something marvellous. When they were but that nothing had been done, and they looked around to see, they could not but agree that it was very unfair to make such an assertion. People had spoken of this matter without an atom of information, and some were bold enough to give opinions who had never been in England—their mothers had probably, but they did not even know that. Did it not seen preposterous that these gentlemen should condemn everything after so much time and not a little money had been spent in developing the trade, and should sit down and propound a scheme which must of necessity is its first jump upset everything that had already been done ? He felt pretty strongly on that point, and it appeared to him to speak for itself. They would be as mad as hatters to do anything of the sort proposed. Of course, some people might say, "Oh! Nelsons did not want this scheme; because they have made a pot of money out of the business," If Nelsons had made all the money they had been credited with they would have been millionaires; but he was sorry to say they had not, Mr. Orbell had said there was a want of system, and if there was a system such as he suggested they would be able to control the demand. Now, that was one of the expressions he wanted to touch upon. How was this scheme going to control the demand? If Mr. Orbell had said supply there would have been something in it; but how these new methods were going straight away to interfere with the demand was a thing he could not follow.

Mr. Orbell said in explanation, that if they regulated the supply they would regulate the demand.

Mr. Nelson said that that at once answered his difficulty, and he would withdraw his last remarks. Mr. Orbell afterwards went on to say that supplies must be regulated. Mr. Lowe had said they could not do business because they could not regulate the arrivals, and could not enter into contracts in consequence. Mr. Fitter also said that supplies must be regulated, and he (Mr. Nelson) said that undoubtedly supplies must be regulated, for that was the sole difficulty under which they were all labouring. Some speakers had thought that the difficulty lay in London and none of the difficulty lay at this end, Mr. Mackintosh had said that the difficulty lay in London, and it was due to that bugbear the middleman. This middleman was a man they had been looking for many times, and they did not know where to find him, for the simple reason that he did not exist. It had been their interest to find him if anybody could, but they could not get at him. He would give them a sketch of the real reason for all of the trouble since the early part of 1894. It had beat perfectly dear to Messrs. Nelson Brothers during that period that it was distinctly explainable. In the early part of 1894, during January, February, and March, there had been a very great scarcity of meat, In their (Nelsons.) own stores they got down to a single carcase at the end of March. The effect of a scarcity in meat in their experience was inri the same to them as the effect of a glut. The most disastrous thing that page 21 could happen to them was to have a shortage, for the effect of that was that their customers could not be supplied and had to seek other sources. After that the meat came in double force, and the trade having gone into other hands there were no purchasers to the extent of the arrivals, and it took nearly to the end of 1894 to put the trade into its original position. What followed was due to the wily sheepfarmers on this side. He used that term advisedly because the sheepfarmers knew a great deal. He had discovered that January, February, and March were the best months daring which to send his mutton Home, and he clamoured for more steamers. Which, of course, he got, and the result was that the amount of meat sent Home during the early part of 1895 was more than ever sent before. The sheepfarmers did not take the trouble to discover that in January, 1895, the stores were all full of the previous year's meat, whereas in January, 1894, the stores were empty. It was just that difficulty that upset all their calculations. The figures were spoken of in hundred weights, but he (Mr. Nelson) would speak of them as carcases. Baring the first six months of 1895 there was equivalent to 1,300,000 sheep, while in 1894 there was equivalent to 800,000, so that there was a difference of 500,000 sheep in six months. In addition to this, in 1894 they were put on an empty market, whereas the 1,800,000 were put on a full market. They would therefore see that there was imple reason for the depression in London, The best men, or the best organization, in the colony could not deal with sheep under such conditions. One speaker had said that the present rise was due to the people in London, to a combination of salesmen. If such a combination could be found he thought it would be all the better for the trade; but his opinion was that it was absolutely due to the fact that the meat at Home was being held. Although there was plenty of meat in London the supply was going to fall, and the prices would go up, Unless the frozen-meat companies, however, could be induced to give a hand, the same rush to get the meat into this big market would take place, and the price would go down again, for the farmers would forget that a big rush of meat meant cheaper meat. It did not require a particle of argument to show that most of this trouble was due to want of combination on this side amongst the frozen-meat companies to see that there shipments were properly regulated. If that were done the bulk of the difficulty would be overcome, Mr. Buddo liad said it was a step backwards to have increased storage here. He did not think that Mr. Buddo could have well considered that point, because one of the ramificacations of this business, which he would ask everybody to look at, was the question of the steamers. He would start on the assumption that what-ever steamers we had running the sheepfarmer eventually had to pay for, and it was our business, therefore, to make the steamers pay. He had been told that he was interested in the steamers. Perhaps that fact gave him a little more knowledge than his friend, but he did not think it should make one iota of difficulty. This question of the steamers had to receive Jae consideration from the farming community, because the shipping company must be enabled to make money, and if the steamers were not loaded regularly the farmers had to pay for the empty ships going Home. He noticed that point now, because on that the question of storage hung. Storage was wanted to enable the ships to get a second cargo from those ports where winter sheep were not procurable. In his own district the country was such that they could not possibly grow winter sheep, and, as the protectors of that district, they had put up the necessary storage, with the result that they did not ship more in the summer than page 22 they did in the winter, and all their ships went away loaded winter and summer. He suggested that other companies should do the same. The impression formed by some speakers was that no one had done anything, and it wanted this scheme to do something. Ho had been spending the last six months in thinking upon the very point touched upon by Mr. Nathan and Mr. Orbell The reduction in freights, Mr. Begg said, had been made by Mr. Martin, but he (Mr. Nelson) thought the Tysers had a hand in it, and he knew the Nelsons had. He was not going to say that Nelsons did it altogether, but he simply mentioned the fact to show that some of them were doing something, and every freezing company in the colony was doing something; and he did not like the assumption that they were all sitting still, and wanted to be stirred up by some invisible pole and to have a little brains put into their heads, It had been the fashion to make a number of assertions, which had been handed down from father to son as facts, but an assertion did not make a fact. They had been distributing for the last twelve years to the utmost of their ability, and he had never known any gentleman from the colony to come back from London and say that Nelsons had done nothing in the matter. He thought he might say that they generally or always said that everything that could be done had been done. It was important for the Conference to realise that what he was saying was not a lot of empty brag, because it was absolute fact. If he could only induce them to believe this they would dissolve their meeting at a pretty early stage. One gentleman had said that he had heard it stated that a new company had recently been formed—a Colonial Consignment Distribution Company—and that he had heard it from good authority they were buying large numbers of sheep. He knew that that gentleman was not intentionally saying what was incorrect, but the assertion was an absolute fabrication, and it was one of a great number that had been reported to him. He (Mr. Nelson) looked upon the circulation of such statements as a very great disaster to the colony, because every one had admitted for a long time past that a company in London representing the interests of a8 sections of the community was the very thing required. He had been at work for the last five years to get such a company formed, and they had now got a company which had taken all the trouble and obtained the money, and would start off with a rattling good business. And now they found it was to the interests of some people to invent a yarn like that, absolutely to discredit that company He considered that every sheep-farmer in the country who would decline to look upon that company as a beneficial institution, and would not support it, was doing something in the direction of cutting his own throat. He would ask the Conference to bear in mind that this company at Home was not a buying company. Nelsons' was a buying company. The difference was that Nelsons' undertook to consign to this company, as consignors, just the same as if any person present consigned to the company, and were absolutely distinct from it Mr. Orbell had suggested that the freezing companies should federate, He (Mr. Nelson) understood that meant that the freezing companies should have a general understanding as to what they were doing. That seemed to him to be the very tiling they all had to aim at. If all the freezing companies would agree to do what was required to be done he was perfectly certain they would be able to fight their battle successfully. He was satisfied that such a body as that would be much more capable of doing what was required than any company which could be formed in any portion of the globe. He had had a talk during the last few hours with the representatives of freezing page 23 companies in the North Island, and he had no doubt an agreement would be come to in the North Island right away to Auckland, but he did not know so much about the South Island companies, and thought there might be elements of difficulty to control. But even if they would not all agree, there was no reason why they should not make an attempt to do all they could, and if they did that, they would meet with a great deal of success. He did not think the frozen-meat trade was going to collapse at all, and had never had any uneasiness about it. His firm had lost an unconscionable amount of money last year, but hoped they were going to get it back. There were precious few farmers in the colony who had felt anything the matter with them, and he had heard of wethers selling in the Otago Province at 15s, One gentleman had interjected, " What was the price in general?" but he did not care what would be the price in general, for he knew that the average price would be a good one if they took this sensible step and controlled the output. The quality of the sheep was a point they could not talk too much about. The great trouble was that every sheepfarmer would insist that his sheep were better than any one else's, and made you feel it when you went to buy his sheep. It was not to be supposed that the sheepfarmer could possibly know so much about the freezing business as those engaged in it. The freezing companies were the custodians of the trade, and the sheepfarmers had to listen to what they had to say. The freezing companies had to lay down the lines for the sheepfarmors to go on, and to stick to them; and he had to say that he would not buy a bad sheep, and if any one sent him bad sheep of any kind he would not freeze them for him. He would ask every company to do the same thing. He had been told that if a company refused to freeze sheep, the client fell out with it. Well, it was their business to teach people what they did not know, and to force them to know it. There was something to be said for the sheepfarmer. Some years ago we were told we were sending sheep Home too fat. In the "North Island that complaint was remedied, and now the sheep farmer had drifted off a little to the other extreme. He believed that many of the buyers had fallen into the same error through being told that very fat sheep were not good for freezing, and had consequently bought inferior sheep which they should not have bought. But the trade had now become such a science that every one had to go into every detail with the greatest possible care. He had heard it said, when he had declined to freeze inferior sheep, that that was one of his monopolizing tricks. The farmer had not sufficient smartness to see that while it did not matter to him what he (Mr. Nelson) froze, it mattered a great deal to the farmer.

Mr. Nathan said he rose to explain that Mr. Nelson had forgotten the last clause in the remarks he had made. He (Mr. Nathan) had stated that he did not feel it necessary to go into details in connection with this scheme until the principle of a sheep-tax was accepted. His experience of meetings of this character was that it would not be troubled with detail to any extent, and therefore, until the question of the tax was decided, it was needless for him to go into detail.

The Chairman said he had been very much interested in the trade, and having an opportunity while in England he had made it his business to get at the facts, even though they might prove to be disagreeable. The broad fact he had got at was that a very large amount of inferior meat bad been sent Home, There could be no question about that, and they would be certain that that was so when he said that he had actually seen it himself with Messrs. James Bull, John Duthie, Arthur Rhodes, and page 24 several others, all of whom unanimously said they were ashamed of a large number of the sheep they had seen. He did not condemn the whole; but there was a considerable number of inferior sheep. There was one lamb in particular, which might, of course, have been exceptional He remembered a joke being made about this lamb. A man in Smithfield had said that he did not know what it was until he had got a light and put it inside, and then he saw it was a lantern. He (the Chairman) went to one of the salesmen and asked if that was the class of lamb that had been sent, and the salesman said it was, and that they were very bad Nothing could be worse for the trade than the sending Home of bad lambs. Good lamb at the time was selling at 5d. per pound, while on: lamb was selling at 3d. and 3½d. When one ventured to say that these things happened, he was either laughed at or abused. He had taken a good deal of pains to get at facts, and had always though it his duty to state them. Having got the facts, he determined to write to the newspapers in the colony and state them just as they were. He wrote a careful letter, which he submitted to Mr. Nelson He also showed the letter to Mr. George Beet ham, and asked him if he approved of it, to put his name to it, and Mr. Beetham said he would do so with a great deal of pleasure. That letter was sent out to the New Zealand Times, which never published it. They wore absolute facts, and he thought they ought to have been published, because they would have done a great deal of good. Mr. Nelson was of the same opinion that these facts ought to be published. He (the Chairman) had sent a considerable number of his own sheep, and had been ashamed of some of them. If 10 per cent, of the article sent was bad, the whole shipment " damaged. The tendency was to blame the London people; but before we blamed them we had to be quite certain we had sent good stuff Home Mr. Nelson had said, very properly, that every owner thought his sheep better than any one else's. In the old days, before we had shows, that opinion was very prevalent; but when the owner saw his sheep alongside others at the shows he was able to see whether he was right or wrong. It was the same in Smithfield, where the difference was seen between the sheep, and one could not help seeing that some of the sheep should not have been sent Home. He quite agreed with the speakers who contended that no increase in London storage was wanted, and believed that storage m the colony was much more desirable. But, again, if they were going to store sheep in the colony, they must be good. If an inferior sheep wan stored, it looked very bad after it was taken out. He was rather amused by the statement of one speaker who had said there was no distribution of our sheep north of London. Why, one found meat almost all over England—at Hull, Manchester, Liverpool, Glasgow, and everywhere one went to As to the sheep being sold as English, it was all nonsense. It was not true to any great extent, and, if true, what could they wish more than that it should be sold as the best meat in the market? Obviously if a man sold it as English and got a good price for it, he would come again and buy it. He could quite understand the English farmer complaining about this practice but not the New Zealand sheepfarmer. With reference to what had been" said about things being wrong in London, he had had the pleasure of meeting Mr. Jameson, who had gone there for the purpose of making special inquiry, and had not found any of those abuses which had been spoken of. Mr. Jameson represented several companies and had looked at things in a sensible business-like way, and had found none of the dreadful things being done. He (the Chairman) thought there was very great value to be attached to what Mr. Jameson had said. Mr. Nelson page 25 had remarked that the steamers must be made to pay. He (the Chairman) was a shareholder in two of the largest companies, and had an interest in looking at the question from their point of view; bat he was also intimately acquainted "with the men running these steamship companies, Sir Edwyn Dawes and others had shown him the facts with regard to the running of these boats, and it had been quite clear to him that if the owners did not get reasonable freights they would be driven off the une. We could not expect the work to be done unless the ships were made to pay. He had said to the shipping men, "Do not keep on building these ships; we have ships enough. If you had fewer ships going Home crowding the meat into London at one season we could not have the gluts." It would have been a very great advantage to us if we had not had so many ships, as we should then have been compelled to store meat in the colony, and so equalise shipments. Mr. Nelson said that everything that could be done had been done, hut he (the Chairman) did not think that could be said of anything in the world, He thought we could improve on everything. Perhaps Mr. Nelson did not quite mean what he said. Sufficiently reaching the retail salesman had not been done, and there was a tremendous amount of work yet to be accomplished, A man in the butter trade had said to him, " We force our stuff on our customers: we do not wait for them to come to us, we go to them and make them take it." It was an old saying that any fool could sell what people want, but what we wanted to do was to make them buy what they did not want, Of one thing he was certain, wherever he had eaten the meat sent in good condition, he had found it better than English, and if it was better than English it must in the long run he eaten generally. Some practical good would come out of this Conference if some mode of insuring regular shipments could be adopted which would obviate such enormous blocks as had occurred at Home. When the Conference had got rid of a good deal of what was impracticable in the crude proposals before it, it would no doubt turn its attention to something which would be of lasting benefit to the trade.

Mr. Nelson said he would explain, in reference to his statement that everything that could be done had been done, that he was talking of the last twelve years. Perhaps he ought to have said that he was referring to the previous twelve years, and not to the present moment. In the future a great deal had to be done, and what they asked for was time to do it in, The trade could expand, for there was ample room for expansion if they did not attempt to expand it too fast.

Mr. Booth said he would like to express his acknowledgment of his obligation to Mr. Nathan and to Mr. Orbe 11 for what they had done, because if their efforts had only resulted in the assembling of that Conference he thought that was a good deal to have done. He hoped the results of the Conference would amply justify the course they had taken. He-would like also to say that he and, he believed, most of the gentlemen present were very sensible of the advantage the colony had derived from the operations of Nelson Brothers now and for a good many years past. Ho was glad to think that, as far as he could judge, the Conference would be fairly unanimous in rejecting the proposal to impose a sheep-tax and invite Government interference in connection with the trade-What required to be done in order to secure a much more complete success than I been attained in the past was quite within the power of the freezing companies. With regard to the quality of the sheep, the Government should take care to see that only good sheep were sent away. He believed we should have to copy to a considerable extent the Canterbury sheep. page 26 In the North Island we bred sheep for the wool, but he thought they should be the best of their class, and when we were able to get a higher quality of North Island sheep we should find a ready and more profitable market for all we could send to Loudon, It was true we allowed the long-wool sheep to run to four-tooth, which were too heavy, but we would in time be able to get them in proper condition as two-tooths, and then they would be found to be a very high class mutton indeed, and would bring a good price in London. It could not be impressed too much on the farmers that it must rest with the freezing companies to secure this. If one company refused to take unfinished sheep another company afterwards agreed to take them, but if the freezing companies agreed to take only properly finished sheep there would be no difficulty and the farmers, finding that the companies refused to take their sheep, would have to keep them themselves. Assuming that we could get some combination by which we could secure a higher average quality, to a very large extent a great part of our difficulty would be surmounted, and loss would be prevented if we could regulate the shipments. But for the latter we must have larger storage space. To obtain that, we must have the necessary money, and if the Conference could find out how the money was to be got he would be very glad. Then there was another difficulty; how were they going to deal with farmers who had 40,000, 50,000, or 60,000 sheep to sell; how were they going to provide the money to buy these in order to store them? The farmer did not like to take the risk of sending his sheep to London; he desired to be paid for them in the colony. The question was, who was to pay him for his sheep? He (Mr. Booth) did not see any solution of the difficulty, and was quite sure he should hesitate to take part in a risk of so serious a nature. If they could control the meat in London so as to make sure of a minimum price, there might not be so much difficulty, but New Zealand was not the only source of supply to the London market, and we might find a time when we had taken over 50,000 or 60,000 sheep that we were face to face with a glut caused by Australia or some other place, and would make a loss of £20,000 or £25,000, There was certainly no freezing company in the colony at present which could face such a loss as that. The Conference seemed to be agreed that something should be done in the way of storage accommodation, but how to find the money was a question of no lees importance. It was really necessary that it should be done in order that the cargo boats should be filled on every voyage they took, but the preliminary wanted was the capital necessary for increasing the storage accommodation and buying the sheep with a view to putting them on the London market and regulating the supply there. If these means could be evolved it would be a very great step. He thought the freezing companies should take only first-class sheep of the several kinds proposed to be sent.

Sir John Rail said he was sent by the Canterbury Agricultural and Pastoral Association distinctly to oppose Mr. Nathan's scheme, but he had gathered since coming into the room that that was a work of supererogation. To enumerate why this scheme should not be adopted would be like an attempt to kill the slain; therefore he simply wished to put on record that the society which he represented was distinctly opposed to the scheme proposed by Mr. Nathan. They were not satisfied with things as they were, and thought that a great deal could be done to improve the existing arrangements for disposing of frozen meat; but perhaps that could be better discussed when the Conference had disposed of Mr. Nathan's scheme.

Mr. Litchfield said he was sent by his association (Marlborough), which was composed very largely of small sheepfarmers, to do all he could to prevent Mr. Nathan's scheme from passing into effect; and, like those who had preceded him, he did not propose to waste time by killing what had already been slain. There was one thing that perhaps was hardly within the range of practical politics. He alluded to the live-meat trade. It was true that that was a small factor of the business at present, but, viewing the comparative ease with which the live-meat trade was being pushed, they might fairly say that it would have a considerable effect in the future. That, to his mind, was an argument why this Conference should not take any steps to place the meat-freezing companies in a position hereafter to take advantage of the public of New Zealand. He did not think the Conference should do anything which would guarantee the freezing companies recouping to themselves any possible loss to which they might be subjected on account of the live-meat trade. It was true that that trade was not a large factor at present, but if we looked forward to the years coming, we could not but see that the time was not far distant when the steamer route through Central America would be opened, and New Zealand would be brought within twenty-two days of England, with a fair passage all the way, rendering it possible to send our meat to England as live cattle were now sent from the Argentine Republic and the Northern States of America, For that reason he would vote against Mr. Nathan's scheme.

Mr. Anderson said he was not bound to any scheme. He had been sent by people who were highly delighted with Mr. Nathan's scheme, which had come before the pubic some months ago, but he was not bound to support any scheme. There was a matter he wished to bring before the Conference which was important to every one. Great complaints had been made in his district as to the treatment of the meat before it was sold. After sheep had been sent down on farmers' own account the freezing companies had kept them for a week, and sometimes a fortnight, in Wellington in a state of semi-starvation. Farmers in his district objected to that, because if sheep were once got up into a good condition for the purpose of sending them Home, and afterwards kept in a half-starved state, they would be found to be very unfit to send Home as freezers. Sheep had been sent away from his neighbourhood and kept for a fortnight until they were ruined, so that instead of being fit to send to London they were only fit for stores. He hoped the freezing companies would endeavour to remedy that evil. They were not interested in the freezing companies in the neighbourhood he came from. They also thought that the cost of sending them Home and freezing them here was a very expensive process, and that the cost might be very much reduced, Indeed, they calculated it might be reduced fully 50 per cent. He was at the Conference that day for the purpose of advocating these views, and hoped the Conference would support him in the matter. Further, a few farmers had sent sheep down to the free zing-works at Wellington to send Home, and he could give cases where the results were very disappointing to the owners when the returns came to hand. He was speaking of the weight. On more than one occasion there was very good proof that the sheep sent down to the free zing-works were not returned as of correct weights. That was very disappointing to any one, but especially to a small settler. He did not think he could support the gentleman who represented Dunedin in regard to cool storage on this side, because if there vas to be any storage at all it must be on the London side. If we had very much meat on this side there would be a constant tendency not to page 28 have the article at Home, whereas, if they had the sheep on the London side they could always sell them. It was necessary to have some competent person to look after the disposal of the meat at Home. It was found that after the sheep were sent away and arrived at Home there was no proper distribution of it and no care displayed. One agent seemed to sell for another agent one day and vice versâ the next day. He had a very strong opinion indeed that the middleman did exist, and that he was more of a benefactor than the wholesale purchaser.

Mr. Dalrymple said that like the last speaker, he was sent not to support Mr. Nathan's scheme or any scheme, but to Bee what could best be done for the benefit of New Zealand as a whole. There were supporters of Mr. Nathan's scheme in Palmerston North, but a large majority of the stockowners did not favour it, and did not approve of any rate being imposed for the purpose. With other speakers, he thought Mr. Nathan deserved a hearty vote of thanks for bringing the matter forward, together with Mr. Orbell, and enabling the Conference to be called. He had been Home during the last twelve months, and had taken the trouble to follow the meat from the colony to London and throughout the Old Country to see where it went to. He had seen the meat taken by the "Gothic." It had been well slaughtered, and every care was taken in putting it into the steamer. He afterwards saw it when it was taken out of the "Gothic" in London, and thought the manner in which it was handled was simply disgraceful. It was handled like bags of coal It was sent into long shoots and shot down into barges, which were kept sometimes twenty-four hours and in the sun before the tide would allow the barges to go up to the stores. He also saw the meat taken out which was consigned to Nelson Brothers, and he might say that more careful handling could not be desired.

Mr. Nelson: Did the meat come out hard?

Mr. Dalrymple said it was softened a little. After the meat left the store he saw it at Smithfield. Some of it was well handled and some was not. Some of it had been rejected, and the meat was simply lying down on the counter exposed to view. Leaving Smithfield, he followed it to several places in London. He saw mutton in Leadenhall Market which he spotted as New Zealand frozen meat. The salesman denied that it was New Zealand mutton, but he (Mr. Dalrymple) said he was certain of it because some of it was his own meat, and the salesman after admitted that it was New Zealand mutton. That was bringing from 9d, to 10d. per pound. He (Mr. Dalrymple) went to Birmingham, Manchester. Bristol, Hull, Edinburgh, Glasgow, and other large towns here and there) but could not find any New Zealand mutton sold, but found any number of shops which were selling colonial mutton." This colonial mutton was very dark in appearance, and all the butchers admitted that it was not New Zealand mutton but River Plate mutton. The only reason they had for calling it colonial mutton was that there were a few carcases of lamb being sold there. He went down to Liverpool, Birkenhead, and Chester, and there saw good mutton being sold as New Zealand mutton. He then went back to London and saw there Mr. Montague Nelson, and asked him why he did not send New Zealand mutton down to Leeds, Hull, and other places, and Mr. Montague Nelson said New Zealand mutton was too big for them. Therefore, his (Mr. Dalrymple's) opinion was that New Zealand mutton was not fairly distributed at Home. The conclusion he came to was that if we could get our mutton sent not only to London, but to Liverpool, Leeds, Hull, and many other places, and the facilities for unloading were improved—if we could get the meat put into railway-trucks instead of into page 29 barges—the trade would be more satisfactory to all, but until that was done no improvement could be expected. He had heard our method of slaughtering criticized very much. While in Birkenhead he went to see sheep and cattle slaughtered, and saw the whole process from beginning to end, and he said distinctly that New Zealand beef and mutton were slaughtered much better. The dirt and filth, he saw about the place at Birkenhead would not be allowed in New Zealand. He agreed with Mr. Begg that we ought to have storage accommodation here to enable the mutton to be shipped Home as it was required.

Mr. J. C. Chaytor said he certainly thought that when the Conference met it would find some scheme before it on the details of which the Conference would have worked, and which would have justified the stockowners consenting to the imposition of a sheep-rate, Unfortunately there was nothing of the sort. As Mr. Nelson had said, everything depended on details; and as there were none in this case, he (Mr. Chaytor) could not support the scheme. He could also support Mr. Nelson in what he said about the sheep. In Marlborough they would not take bad sheep. He had sent Home seven lamba, and last week had received a letter from one of his cousins in the North of England stating that the meat was very good. Another cousin had given him some hints as to the distribution of our mutton at Home. When Nelson Brothers first started freezing in the Marlborough District a few years ago he had sent some of his lambs Home as presents, and the reports on them were uniformly good; but the account-sales had generally been very unsatisfactory. He hoped the result of the Conference would be that better arrangements would be made for distribution at Home, and thought the freezing companies out here should combine and refuse to take second-rate meat. Buying up or amalgamating the freezing companies would be a very great mistake.

Mr. Kirkbride said he was sent to oppose that part of Mr. Nathan's scheme which would lead to further taxation—that was, to the levying of a sheep-tax, or to the Government guaranteeing portion of the capital required. He had come rather as a listener to the Conference, and had been very much gratified with what he had heard, for he had gained a great deal of information since the Conference had opened that morning, He had looked for more details from Mr. Nathan, The gigantic scheme, as it was sent to them at Auckland, seemed to deal with generalities—in fact it almost took their breath away—and he had thought Mr. Nathan would enter into details and give the Conference information as to how his scheme could be carried out. In Auckland they were of opinion that they were fairly well served by the freezing companies here, but that there was room for improvement at Home in the matter of distribution. He agreed with those who thought there should be more cool storage in England, but did not think any more was required in London. One month's storage supply in London would be sufficient, but if they had sufficient storage accommodation in New Zealand they would be able to 8eud the sheep Home regularly all the year round. He was very glad to get the information he had received that day.

Mr. Bidwill said there was no doubt of this, that had it not been for Mr. Nathan and Mr. Orbell the Conference would not have been called, and for that reason they ought to be very thankful to those gentlemen. At the same time, the feeling in this part of the colony was that the scheme was not practicable at the present time. The price of frozen meat was such that if we attempted to strike a rate throughout the colony on sheep further than that we had it would be howled down from one end of the colony to the other; and we would not have the money to buy up all the freezing com- page 30 panies and start on our own account. There was a great deal to be said in favour of Mr. Nathan's scheme many years hence, but at the present time it was not practicable. He came to the Conference in the hope of hearing some scheme propounded by which the trade could be put in a more satisfactory condition than it was now in. Those who had shipped their sheep Home to London recently had lost the carcase, and had only the skin and offal left to them, and it would have been far better if their sheep had been thrown into the harbour; and these were first-class sheep, too.

Mr. Sladden said one gentleman had stated that sheep sent down to Wellington had been kept for a fortnight in a half-starved condition, He (Mr. Sladden) had consulted with Mr. Millward, and could say that no sheep sent to Wellington to either of the companies, and most certainly to the company he represented, had been kept more than four days.

Mr. Anderson said he had got the information from a private person.

Mr. Millward said he had little to say about the scheme, because it had been dealt with so ably by other speakers; but there did seem to him to be a little discrepancy in the matter of the facts mentioned that day. On the one hand it had been stated that the meat was badly handled, was soft, and did not look pleasant; on the other hand it was said that the meat was sold as English mutton. If it was sold as English, it appeared to him that justice had been done to it all round. There might of course be exceptional circumstances. When stockowners sent their sheep to be frozen on their own account the companies were put into an awkward position. Buyers went round, and if the sheep were not considered of sufficiently high quality to be frozen, would not purchase them, and then the farmer would perhaps elect to send the sheep Home on his own account. As a matter of fact, of the large quantity dealt with by the Gear Company, 40 per cent, were not frozen, but were dealt with in other ways. He took it that that showed, as far as the company's own property was concerned, that a large amount of discrimination was exhibited in the quality of the meat sent Home, A large number of their sheep were boiled down and disposed of by other means. In reply to Mr. Anderson he might say that no sheep had been kept in Wellington a longer time than was necessary to give them a spell He thought that it was probable some mistake had been made in regard to that matter. With reference to increased storage, no doubt this end was the proper place for it. The storage in London was large enough at present His company had opened considerable storage, and he thought the two companies together had storage accommodation equivalent to 40 per cent of the year's output—as much as could possibly be required under any circumstances. The glut last year had contributed to the low prices produced, but at the same time there were other circumstances which helped it, in the form of disturbed trade and strikes, and matters of that sort; and as our meat was sold to the classes directly affected by such disturbances, prices naturally fell. If the wages fund at Home was decreased, the demand for meat was affected also. He had nothing to say about Mr. Nathans scheme, because it had been referred to so ably by people who had absolute knowledge on the subject at both ends.

Mr. Bradey said that the association which he represented, while considering that all due thanks were due to Mr. Nathan for bringing his scheme forward, did not see their way clear to support it.

Mr. Nathan said it seemed to him, from the tone of the meeting, that the wiser course for him to adopt would be to ask leave to withdraw the resolutions entirely. Before doing so, he would like to make a few re- page 31 marks in reply to some of the speakers. It seemed to him that Mr. Booth had put the crux of the matter before the Conference very plainly. All seemed to be pretty well agreed that improvements were necessary and possible in the conduct of this trade, not only at this end, but at the other end of the world-To achieve that object money was required, and the question they had to consider was where that money was to come from. Our freezing companies, as Mr. Booth put it, were not going to find it. How were they going to finance in order to hold the large stocks required to regulate the shipments throughout the year? Ho failed to see how they were going to do that without money, and the only way to raise that money was by some such method as a sheep-rate. It was never suggested that it would be necessary to levy a tax of 3d., nor probably 1½.; but something between ½d. and l½d. would be necessary; while, to make a company absolutely financially strong, power would probably be wanted to rate up to 3d. He had never suggested Government control-All he suggested was what had been brought forward and ably supported by leading newspapers in the colony in relation to local bodies, and that was that the various loans of the County Councils, Harbour Boards, Municipal and other bodies should be federated and guaranteed by the State; and it was looked upon as right and proper that the Government should step in and pass a measure of this kind in order to save the ratepayers money in interest. Why, then, if that were right, should it be wrong for the Government to do the same for the ratepayer when he was called a sheepfarmer? He had never advocated Government control, but simply wanted legal power for a controlling Board. It was the usual thing for everybody to desire to get advantages, but to decline to pay for them. Everybody wanted to spill the last drop of his brother's blood. But, even in federating, they need not go so far as buying out the various freezing companies, and if arrangements were only made by which the steamers could be saved from travelling all over the colony by sufficient storage accommodation being obtained, the sheepfarmers could, he had been assured on the highest authority, secure a reduction of ¼d. per pound, and not only in the winter. But that point would not affect the North as it would the South Island. With the further improvements in shipbuilding, it would not be many years before they would have their meat carried for ½d, a pound. When the question was discussed at the Society of Arts, attention was drawn to the fact that, with the improvements in the steamers and less consumption of coal, it was quite possible that the freight would be reduced by one-half. Ordinary commercial competition was now such that isolated interests or small companies could not get such terms as could be obtained by a combination. When one portion of a trade was worked under combination another portion was driven into the same thing, because with two strong bodies fighting against each other one must lose, and they soon realised that a common ground must be found. The dairy-produce business was at present suffering in the same way as the meat trade. The assistance given by the Government in Victoria had resulted in a reduction of freight. He took it that after all, the amendment moved by Mr. Begg had really the same object in view as his (Mr. Nathan's) resolutions had. It was only that some other means should be taken to achieve it. Although Mr. Begg and others had accused him of not going into details, Mr. Be" "himself had not found a way to finance what he proposed. Mr. Begg had quoted the present price of sheep down South, Well he (Mr. Nathan) had in his hand papers which went to show that there were farmers who had not realised more than Is. 3d. per head for their sheep. As had been page 32 stated by Mr. Bid will, the cheaper course would have been to cut their throats and keep their skins here. What was wanted was an arrangement by which a steady market might be secured, and he understood that that could be done, so as to avoid these gluts, A Mr. Cameron, when in Manchester, issued a challenge to the butchers that they had ever sold New Zealand meat as New Zealand meat, and Mr. Bruce said in his report that very little mutton sold as New Zealand meat was found sixty miles north of London—that in London and the south it was more thoroughly put before the public, but not in the north. Everyone knew that the meat went north, and he himself knew it was sold in Glasgow; but, still, shrewd men had gone Home and not been able to obtain it there as New Zealand mutton. One gentleman had gone into a London shop and accused the butcher of selling New Zealand meat as English, He was assured that the meat was Canterbury (Kent) mutton, but after he had been bounced a little the butcher admitted it was New Zealand meat. If the Conference wanted to know anything about this matter he could refer them to Lord Onslow's report. It seemed to him to be unfair to expect a broker at Home to take upon himself the cost of combining with other to find new markets. That cost should be borne, not by the broker, but by those whose meat he was selling, for new markets were worth paying for. The Conference might come to conclusions with regard to improving the storage of the meat and so forth, but unless they found the money he could not see how their resolutions could be given effect to. He had received a letter from Japan that morning, which showed how the Japanese pushed their trade. That letter stated that if he wanted his order for certain goods repeated six months' notice would have to be given, as they were too busy and must have time ahead. Could that be said of any branch of business in New Zealand to-day? By the newspapers it was found that France, Germany, and Italy were spending enormous sums of money in the interests of commerce. It was wise and just to do that, and one of the foremost statesmen in the world to-day (Mr. J. Chamberlain) was advocating State aid for the advancement of commerce. Speaking of Africa and the enormous stake England had in that country, and of the bad times and plethora of capital at Home, he said it was time the Government took a practical interest in the trade of the country, for how could they expect a country to be developed when it took from £200 to £300 a ton to bring their goods to market? None of these improvements could be effected without the expenditure of capital, England had been going on for years subsidising the mail-steamers; what for? To expand her trade. That all came out of the taxpayers' pockets. What had Canada done for her cheese and butter industry? They had only to look at the position of Canada to-day to see what the result had been. We were making cheese which cost us 16s. a hundredweight to place on the English market as against Canada's 7s. to 8s. Victoria had built up a butter trade of nearly a million per annum, while ours had been languishing. The Danes had gone further than even the Victorian Government, and kept up a supervision of the trade in England that cost £30,000 per annum. They took care that the butter was sold as Danish butter, and if they found anybody selling any other butter under the name of "Danish" butter they prosecuted at once. He need hardly refer to the Queensland sugar industry, and the South Australian wine industry, and the care that was displayed by those Governments to foster those industries. But the greatest instance of forosight of all was to be found in the growth of the Indian and Ceylon tea trade. Would that tea have replaced the Chinese teas had the growers page 33 not put their hands into their pockets? And now the tea-growers of India and Ceylon could not keep up with the increased consumption which modern methods had enabled them to secure. In California they had yet another instance of what could be done. The wine trade had proved so successful under the combination which liad been effected that the Fresno people liad combined to push their dry-fruit trade, and had a wider market than they had ever had before, and they were now engaged in pushing the fresh-fruit trade. However, as Mr. Nelson had put it, the new company starting at Home had altered the whole position, and he (Mr. Nathan) quite realised it; but the Conference liad been called, and a decision come to to get the representatives of this industry to consult on the matter. In the past the loss had not fallen upon the sheepfarmers entirely, but on the speculators, and the lesson the latter had learned would teach them to take great care in looking after themselves better in the future, with the result probably that the farmer would not do so well. He hoped Mr. Nelson thoroughly understood that he was not throwing any blame on the freezing companies; but he could not see how the freezing companies in New Zealand, working on a different basis and with different objects, could secure that unanimity and success which were necessary for combination at this end and concentration at the other. There was no question about this, and the Conference would probably understand it; that we had not yet reached that point when we could over-stock the English market. The consumption of meat had increased something like 30 per cent, during the last decade. There were French representatives in the Australian Colonies searching the sources of supply for their own markets; and it was possible that France might be compelled to open her markets and cease harassing the meat industry there. It was quite immaterial to him whether his scheme was carried or not. As a colonist, he was simply desirous of getting the produce trade run on modern commercial lines. He did not pretend to be an authority on the frozen-meat trade, but had been round the world and gained experience, and felt quite convinced that the time would arrive sooner or later when the trade would have to be forced and worked, either by a federated body, or by a combination such as he had suggested. It was bound to be conducted either by the farmers or by large companies; it could not be carried on on the same lines as in the past. If it was, it was the only trade in the world that could be worked in that way. It was for the farmers to decide, for it was they who would have to put their hands into their pockets, He had to thank the Conference very much for the patient hearing given to him.

By permission of the Conference, the resolutions submitted by the provisional committee were withdrawn, and Mr. Begg's amendments made the substantive motion.

Mr. Beetham moved a vote of thanks to Mr. Nathan for the information he bad given to the Conference, and for haying brought forward his scheme.

Mr. Chaytor seconded the motion. Mr. Nathan had taken a great deal of trouble in going round the country to explain his proposal. Whatever resulted from the Conference, its meeting could only result in benefit to the sheepowners of the colony. He thought Mr. Orbell's name should be added to the motion, for both gentlemen had been struck with the same idea at the same time.

The motion, with the name of Mr. Orbell added, was put and carried.

Mr. Orbell said he would like to thank the Conference for the vote just passed, for he considered it a great compliment. Ho was not at all page 34 disappointed with the result of their discussion, and was quite prepared to support any measure which would be for the good of the industry. He hoped that Mr. Begg would see his way to carry his proposals a little further, and make them a little more practicable.

Mr. Bidwill said he wanted to know how they were going to regulate the meat market against the Argentine and other countries under Mr. Begg's scheme of storage.

Mr. Begg said if the colony regulated its output it would increase the price obtained for its meat. If other countries increased their output it could not be helped, and New Zealand would have to take its chance, We had heard for the last twenty years that the Argentine was going to swamp us with regard to wool and other things, but it had not done so, and if there was an increase from that country at all it would not be of inordinate magnitude, but would be, as in the past, & gradual growth.

It having been agreed to take the clauses of Mr. Begg's motion seriatim.

Question proposed, "That, in the opinion of this Conference, any attempt to establish a monopoly of the frozen-meat industry of the colony would be both undesirable and impracticable."

Motion agreed to.

Question proposed, "That, in order to give confidence to buyers, and to secure, as far as possible, uniformity in quality of the meat exported, it is desirable that the freezing companies in the colony should agree to a uniform system of grading."

Mr. Beetham said he would attach far more weight to the quality of the sheep. We had two classes of meat in New Zealand—what were called Canterbury and Wellington. We sent equally good sheep away as Canterbury did, but we might send a good many more bad ones. The difficulty was this: in Canterbury they had local markets which had been a means of educating the farmers as to the quality of sheep for many years past, while the fanners in the Wellington district had never sold their sheep at markets, Farmers who were expert in judging sheep would be invaluable in the North Island, for there were lamentably few who could pick a sheep. In the South buyers went about to the different stations and picked the sheep. They were clever experts, and they had only to put their hands on the back of a sheep to be able to pick it. The farmers in the Wellington district, for the most part, did not understand a good Iamb or sheep when they saw it. An attempt had been made to establish a market at Featherston. But after the second market was held, the promoters were laughed at by the buyers, and the company which was formed had to go into liquidation soon after. There were small markets at Carterton and Masterton, but these were principally used for local business. Until the farmers had education to know when a sheep or lamb was fit enough to send to the London market they would be under a disadvantage. It was quite different in Canterbury, and it was due to their knowledge in this respect that Canterbury mutton had obtained its name.

Mr. Sladden said he did not assume that, because a sheep weighed 551b. or 601b., it would be of first-rate grade. One of the causes for the great strides made in the trade had been the selling of sheep on c.i.f. terms. People wanted quality, but also different grades. His opinion was that under c.i.f. terms the buyers had succeeded in getting the weights they wanted, and would not take any other.

Mr. Coleman Phillips said he would like to point out that the English Government had requested the Agents-General to ascertain if the sheep page 35 would be inspected in the colony before being" sent Home, and he understood that the Agents-General had replied collectively that the meat would be inspected. Difficulty might arise through a farmer wishing to send away meat not of first-class quality. He could not see how any of the freezing companies could prevent a farmer from freezing what he used. As Mr. Sladden had pointed out, if the farmers insisted upon freezing their sheep the freezing companies would be placed in an awkward position, and if the colony was going to give an assurance to England that the colony's meat would be inspected he (Mr. Phillips) did not see how they could avoid having a Government officer appointed, A great deal had been said about the North Island of New Zealand not being able to produce mutton equal to that of Canterbury on account of the Canterbury sheep being far and away superior to those of the North Island, the argument being that we could not get up our Lincoln and Romney sheep to equal the Canterbury Downs and Leicester sheep;. Would the Conference be surprised to hear that some of the best Canterbury sheep sent into the English market—and admitted to be so by English buyers—were Lin coins? If farmers in the North Island liked to do so they could breed a quality of Lincoln that would pass the standard, and it was in that" direction he thought the system of grading should come in. His opinion was that they should give the English people an assurance that our meat would be inspected, and then we should take care only to send the very best quality Home of whatever breed we sent.

Mr. Begg said the manager of a freezing company was an expert in the quality of sheep whose word should be law. It was so with his company, If his manager said any sheep were not fit they had to go away. There was no necessity for a Government Inspector. If a manager was given power to reject sheep he thought not sufficiently good that should settle the matter.

Mr. Overton thought they should recommend the whole of the freezing companies in New Zealand to agree on an improvement in the grading of sheep. He was in London some four years ago and felt thoroughly ashamed of a great deal of the New Zealand frozen meat he saw; there was so much that was bad. The English people did not look so much at the weight of the sheep; it was the quality they liked. In the South Island they had a drier climate than that in the North, and were able to produce long-wool sheep at an earlier age, A great deal of difficulty would be got over if they sent nothing but what they were proud of Weight and quality were two different things; and the latter, with a fair weight, was very desirable.

Mr. Kirkbride said he imagined that all sheep slaughtered now passed the Stock Inspector. They had seen that the Government of New South Wales had advised their representatives in London to assure the English Government that their frozen meat underwent a double inspection before being shipped, He understood that, if this resolution passed, it was a recommendation to all the freezing companies that they should agree to some uniform system of grading and weight, He thought the matter of inspection related to disease, and not so much to the quality of the sheep.

Mr. Nelson said the only part of Mr. Begg's motion that he felt exercised about was his proposition for uniformity of grading in the colony. In practice that would be found very difficult to make applicable, Mr. Beetham had stated his views very clearly, but on one point he (Mr. Nelson) wished to go a little further. The mutton grown in the North Island, speaking generally, he took to be the worst quality of mutton in the world. He dared say that would be taken with considerable doubt, page 36 but it was so. He never heard anybody arguing otherwise than that Lincoln sheep were the worst class of mutton for eating purposes he could grow. But the North Island farmer was not going to abandon Lincolns straight off, and he could not expect to get credit for having the best mutton while he kept this breed of sheep. He (Mr. Nelson) thought it would be a long time before Lincolns were eliminated from the North Island, and while that was so, we could not expect to get uniform grading. While he said we should not freeze a bad sheep, he did not go so far as to say we should not freeze a Lincoln sheep; therefore the term "uniform system of grading" must be amended in some way. In, his daily practice in the freezing-works they must class for weight. While they found that 551b. and 601b, sheep had a special value, simultaneously with these first-class weights they must have some of the others.

The Conference, at five minutes past five p.m., adjourned until ten a.m. the next day.