Privilege: Mr. Larnach and the "New Zealand Herald.

Debate in the House of Representatives, on Tuesday, 14th August, 1888.

Mr. Larnach.—Sir, late last evening a paper known as the New Zealand Herald, published in Auckland, was placed in my hands, and that paper contains an article that is libellous and scurrilous to the utmost degree upon myself. It reflects very considerably and it refers to a circumstance which is known to honourable members, as recently was suddenly called south on account called south on account of very serious illness in my family; and this paper has taken up the ease in a most scurrilous way, and has referred to it as though my pretended absence was simply an excuse to be away from Wellington to attend to my own private affairs. Now I will ask the Clerk to read the article, as, Sir if you wish, I will myself read the article referred to. What I would like to explain to the House is that I was unexpectedly and suddenly called south by my medical man as account of illness in my family; and when I arrived south I found the illness was so severe that I was detained there until a serious and dangerous operation was performed; and it the other day that Dr. Cough trey allowed me to conic here, as it was supposed all danger had passed. Well, Sir, to my great surprise after coining here I was brought face to face this scurrilous article. As I am about leave New Zealand and to settle again in Australia, where I resided for some years and am known there to many friends, if this article were published in the papers of Australia, unless contradicted it would [unclear: reflect] seriously on my character and prospects,

Mr. Speaker.—Do you move that it be and by the Clerk?

Mt. Larnch.—Yes, Sir.

Mr. Larnach.—There is some telegraphic correspondence that went from the paper's correspondent in Wellington which I wish to have read also.

Mr. Larnach.—I would like to say this: that during the twelve years I have been in this House I have never on any single occasion drawn any portion of my honorarium during the currency of a session; and I do not think that, under the circumstances, any one with a spark of manly feeling would for one moment think that, on account of money matters or anything relating to the honorarium, even supposing it were a hundred and fifty times as much, I could think of doing what has been suggested in the article. If I am in order, Sir, I beg to move, That this article is a breach of the privileges of the House.

Mr. Hobbs.—I wish to state that, as soon as I found I had conveyed an impression to the House and the country that the honourable gentleman intended to draw his honorarium, I took the earliest opportunity next day, at the meeting of the House, to contradict that, and to express my regret; and I may further say that I sent to the honourable gentleman a telegram expressing my regret for having mistaken the reasons which had taken him away, and I received from the honourable gentleman a telegram in which he accepted my apology.

Hon. Members.—Will you read it?

Mr. Hobbs.—I may say that the telegram was anything but courteous.

Hon. Members.—Read it

Mr. Hobbs.—I wish I had it with me.

Mr. Larnach.—I can give you a copy of it

Mr Hobbs.—I can only say it was not at all gentlemanly*.

Mr. Speaker—I think you will have to qualify an expression of that sort.

Mr. Hobbs.—I will withdraw that remark; but, still, I am sure that I made sufficient amends to the House,—and any gentleman would say so. It is my regret that I introduced the name of the honourable member for the Peninsula at all into the matter. The remarks I made in the House, and the question I raised, simply stated what I had been informed—that members of this House had done so, and that in this particular instance it was possible for the honourable member to do so; and the mistake I made was in having assumed that he intended to do so. And I thought, knowing the honourable member, and he knowing me as he does, he would have at once accepted what I said. I have nothing to retract I have nothing to be ashamed of as far as regards raising the question of members drawing their honorarium when absent through illness in their families. I expressed great regret for having introduced the honourable gentleman's name. But, on the question generally, I may say I do not intend to let the matter drop It a member of this House thinks that an about has crept in—and in this case the matter dose not come before the Auditor-General, but is dealt with by the officers of the House—I say it is his duty to try and prevent the abuse l do not feel at all hurt at anything that may be said about me—any discourteous remarks this may be made about me. I am prepared a accept things of this kind in discharging as public duty. I exceedingly regret that I say anything to pain the honourable member. I know that some honourable gentlemen have said to me, "You never knew Larnach to do a mean thing;" and I say I never knew have to do a mean tiling. I may say that, as to the question generally, I intend at another time to go into it.

Mr. O'callaghan.—Is the honourable gentleman in order in making the remark that he intends to see if honourable member have done that generally?

Mr. Speaker.—I do not think the honourable gentleman was out of order.

Sir H. A. Atkinson.—I think there can be no doubt at all in the mind of any of us that this is a gross libel; and I think the honorable gentleman has done well to bring it under notice of the House. The unfortunate part of the thing is that we are not able as a House to deal satisfactorily with these matters. I do not know what further steps the honourable gentleman proposes to take in this matter. I shall be very glad indeed to assist him in any course that he might think desirable to clear his character, if such a thing is necessary but my own opinion is that the honourable gentle man is known far too well to render it advisable that this House should take any further action than express its opinion very strongly as to the breach of privilege of this article and the [unclear: g] untruth of it. I must say, in regard to the honourable gentleman who has just sat down that I think the way he brought this matter before the House was very unfortunate. It seems to me a member is not justified in being matters of this description forward in the way this was brought up. The Parliamentary Honorarium and Privileges Act is quite class in what it says. Parliament in its wisdom last page 3 seen fit to give its authority to grant, as it were a dispensation to members if the Speaker should think there is a sufficient cause. Illness is considered a sufficient cause; and in other circumstances which the Speaker may think justify a dispensation, it may be granted. That being so, it seems to me that my honourable friend made a mistake in bringing the matte forward in the way he did. We should not be always fouling our own nests. I deeply regret that in the Press of the colony there are a large number of papers always ready to seize upon anything, and to assume that every honourable member is doing something that is disereditable to all public men: it does not matter which side of the House they are on, or whether they are little or great, it is just the same It seems to me, I am sorry to say, that there is a sort of desire to hold up public men in the colony to the reprobation of the public, as though they were living upon the public in a disgraceful way. This article goes so far as to talk of the necessity of abolishing Parliament in consequence of a particular member having done something which he ought not to have done. We cannot so much complain of that if our own members start a thing in a wrong way. We must look at home before we look abroad. I do not know what the honourable member proposes to do; but I can assure him that anything I can do I shall be most happy to do to vindicate him in any way he thinks is necessary; but I confess I should like to see the House simply declare this a breach of privilege, and then "the honourable gentlemen could take an action against the paper, and I have not the least doubt it would reap its due reward. I am sure I am speaking the views of the House when I say that this House has perfect confidence in the integrity of the honourable gentleman.

Mr. W. D. Stewart.—I think the honourable member for the Peninsula is to be thanked for bringing this matter before the House; and I am glad Premier has taken up the position he has done on this important question. There is no doubt whatever that there is nothing more easy than to set in circulation the basest rumour about almost any man in this House. Nothing is more easy, and no-thing seized upon more readily by the Press of the country than anything which tells against any member of this House. When you trace this matter you sec that the honourable member for the Bay of Islands has not done enough in expressing regret for what he did This is not the first occasion on which the honourable member has done this, and I am afraid it will not be the last. It seems to be constitutional with the honourable member to indulge in side-attacks of this sort upon other members of this House; and, curiously enough, while expressing regret for what he said with reference to the honourable member for the, Peninsula and that he was of opinion the honourable gentleman would not do such a thing, he said he put this question because he was afraid he intended to do it.

Mr. Hobbs.—I beg your pardon——

Mr. W. D. Stewart.—He said he had a suspicion the honourable member was going to do so.

Mr. Hobbs.—I did not say so.

Mr. W. D. Stewart.—The honourable member said on the previous occasion "he would like to express regret for having assumed that the honourable member for the Peninsula purposed to draw his honorarium during his absence."

Mr. Speaker.—The honourable member cannot refer to a past debate.

Mr. W. D. Stewart.—I venture to say that this article may to a certain extent be excusable on this ground: that the honourable member, occupying the responsible position which he does as a member of this House, distinctly made insinuations against the honourable member for the Peninsula, which, of course, the Press were justified in assuming he had some foundation for. I venture to say this, further: that the honourable member for the Peninsula is one of the last men in this House who would take money under circumstances of doubt. Underlying these remarks of the honourable member for the Bay of Islands there is. Sir, a distinct reflection upon yourself—that is, that you would not do your duty. Subsection (2) of section 5 of "The Parliamentary Honorarium and Privileges Act, 1884," is as follows:—

"The preceding provision as to the deduction to be made in the case of absence of any member in attendance on Parliament shall not apply where such absence is caused by reason of illness, or from any other cause which shall, by the Speaker of the House giving the certificate hereinafter mentioned, be therein stated to be unavoidable."

It was indicated clearly in the speech of the honourable member for the Bay of Islands that the honourable member for the Peninsula intended not only to draw his honorarium, but that he intended to avail himself of his privilege as a member of this House to travel over the railways in the other colonies. I say the insinuations of the honourable member for the Bay of Islands were really unworthy of any member of this House; and for him to hold opinions such as he expressed regarding any member of this House indicates, to my mind, a state of feeling which I should feel ashamed of. I shall be very glad to give the honourable member for the Peninsula any assistance I can in seeing justice done to him; but, probably, after the expression of opinion which this House gives, or has given, upon the subject, it will not be necessary to prosecute the matter further. This House should distinctly reprobate these groundless attempts to undermine the honour and character of other members of the House; and I think that, if no other object is accomplished than that, it will serve a good purpose.

Mr. Verral.—Sir, I should like to propose that this business be adjourned, to give the honourable member for the Bay of Islands a couple of days in which to make such an apology as will be received by the honourable page 4 member for the Peninsula, and to give the editor of the newspaper which has printed the article also the same time to apologize. I think we should waste no further time about it, because there is not the least doubt they will give an apology such as the honourable member for the Peninsula demands.

Mr. Bruce.—I rise, Sir, to very briefly give expression to the indignation I feel at such base and cruel charges being levelled against a gentleman who has for many years occupied high positions in this colony, and who has, I venture to say, occupied an equally high position in the respect and esteem of all with whom he has been brought in contact. Under the circumstances, the charges levelled against the honourable gentleman are of a peculiarly cruel character. I am very glad that the honourable member has brought the question up before the House, because of the effect such statements might have in Australia; and the fact that he has brought the matter forward will give those with whom he will be there associated an opportunity of seeing that our honourable friend holds such a high place in our respect and esteem, and that, in selecting a new home in Australia, he leaves this colony with the regret, I will venture to say, of almost every member in this House.

Mr. R. H. J. Reeves.—It was with very great pleasure I heard the manly and straightforward expression of opinion that came from the Premier. It was what we might expect from him. Any one who knows the honourable member for the Peninsula must know very well that he does not come to sit in this House for the sake of the paltry honorarium he gets here: but when we have honourable members who takes such steps as the honourable member for the Bay of Islands has done I think we ought to endeavour at all events to put ourselves right not only in this colony, but also in the adjacent colonies; for there is not the slightest doubt but that the article published in the Auckland paper will be republished in Australia. It is all very well for the honourable member for the Bay of Islands to say he has apologized; but, as the honourable member for Dunedin West has said, it is easy enough to blacken a man's character, but it takes a great deal to bring it back again to its original state. There is nothing that any public man should be more sensitive over than he is over his character. The honourable member for the Bay of Islands—who, I think, can take Past-master's grade in certain transactions—ought to feel in an unenviable position, or, perhaps, in an unviable one, according to his own ideas. He said he was able to take his own part, and did not care what any one said of him. Well, such a state of mind as that I dare say may be considered by him and by certain of his colleagues as being creditable; but I think, according to the feelings which actuate most members of this House, that view will not be accepted. I hope the honourable member for the Peninsula will press this, and that it will not be allowed to drop, for I feel certain that if the publisher of that paper is brought to the bar of this House as he ought to be, and as I hope he will be, with certain other persons who are connected with that paper—I feel confident in my own mind that evidence will come out that will bring most damming proof against certain members of this House as to their complicity and connivance and as to the information they gave. I am not going to repeat what has been said by the honourable gentleman who has brought up this matter, which is, if I may be allowed [unclear: to] the term, one of the most contemptible charges that could emanate from any member in any Legislature throughout the world. I do not know that if we were to search the whole of of the Australian Colonics, or if we were to search the whole of the British dominions, you could possibly find any one who would be guilty of such gross and contemptible conduct, if I may be allowed to say so, as has been displayed by the honourable member for the Bay Islands. The honourable gentlemen the morning after, when he found the way as which his remarks were met, immediately talk graphed down to my honourable friend the member for the Peninsula to this effect: "Very sorry for my hasty remarks of yesterday. Made under misconception. Accept my regret Sorry to hear of your family troubles." What a sympathetic tone there is in this "Sorry to hear of your family troubles"! Did not the honourable gentleman know that it was because of family troubles that the member for the Peninsula had left?

Mr. Hobbs.—No.

Mr. R. H.J. Reeves.—Did not the honour able gentleman know? "No!" Why what the motion moved by the honourable member for Dunedin South? Was it not to this effect asking leave of absence for the honourable member for the Peninsula on account of serious illness in his family? That was the motion, Sir; and, in the face of that, the honourable member for the Bay of Islands puts this question on the Paper. Sir, it is in keeping with the conduct of that honourable gentlemen and of one or two other honourable gentlemen that I could name, but will not name.

Mr. Speaker,—I cannot allow any refection on honourable gentlemen.

Mr. R. H. J. Reeves.—Well, [unclear: Sir] telegram was sent by the honourable member for the Bay of Islands to my honourable friend the member for the Peninsula, expressing such keen sympathy with him in his family affections. Sir, it is a pity the honourable gentleman's family afflictions should be brought as the floor of this House—it is a great [unclear: pity] now that it has been done I hope the mater will not be allowed to rest. Then my honourable friend replies in the most corteges manner to the honourable member for the Bay of Islands, and says "Sir,—Whether on public or other grounds, your reference to my sheet absence was unfriendly, unmanly, and contemptible; but as a fleeting shadow of delicacy has passed over you, I accept your apology Now, Sir, look at the magnanimous way is which my honourable friend has accepted it page 5 In conclusion, I hope, now that the matter has come before the House, that the House, in order assert its own honour, will not allow matters to repose, but will have the publisher of the paper, together with the special correspondent and his satellites, before the bar of the House.

Mr. Levestam.—I also should like to make a few remarks on this subject. I regret very much that from time to time charges of this kind have been indulged in by members of this House. The honourable member for the Bay of Islands said just now that it is our duty investigate abuses. Yes, Sir; but [unclear: be] he brought this matter before the House his should have been sure that there was an abuse He assumed, without rhyme or reason, that my honourable friend the member for the Peninsula was going to, if I may say so, sponge upon the country—that is, to draw money to which he was not entitled. As my honourable friend the member for Inangahua has pointed honourable gentleman had no right and no reason to say that he did not know what the cause of absence was, because the never of the resolution stated distinctly that have of absence was asked for upon a certain ground-namely, on account of illness is the honourable gentleman's family. Sir, the honourable member for the Bay of Islands [unclear: ted] one occasion that he had asked his bearers to pray members of Parliament, because they greatly needed the prayers of the people here, Sir, he has given us an sentence that members of Parliament do need the prayers of the people to make them mend their ways. I must agree with the honourable member for Inangahua in expressing a wish that this matter should not be allowed to drop, because I really do think the time has arrived when an example should be made of those [unclear: per] who are continually trying to bring our institution into disrespect. I also wish to express my pleasure at the way in which the: Mers Premier has treated the matter, and I feel sure that every member of the House holder the same opinion that he holds, that the honourable member for the Peninsula would do nothing unworthy of him as a member of this House or as a man; and I believe that every member of the House fully recognises that great injustice has been done to him, and that the honourable member for the Bay of Islands is in no way deserving of being lenieatly dealt with.

Mr. Allen.—Sir, I believe that matters of this kind can be looked at from two points of view first of all, from what I might call pastel one; and I consider this is especially a painful proceeding when it is connected with such as estimable gentleman as the honourable member for the Peninsula. I say "estimable" because I do not suppose there is in this House or in this colony a gentleman who has with an excessive amount of generosity; and an know that he would not be capable of everything of the kind that is suggested in this newspaper or in the telegram therein. [unclear: Apart] that I think it has a good effect, too, in that it arrests what I might almost call the downward progress of moral feeling in this House and in those whom this House represents. I have felt often, Sir, in this House that every now and then there was a slight check needed to stop us on the downward path and to put us on a higher gentlemanly platform. And I feel quite sure that remark may also be applied to the Press. I should be sorry to think that any member in this House, descending to anything that was not gentlemanly, or that any newspaper, descending to write any paragraph that is scurrilous and untrue, should be taken as representing the people of the country, whoso enlightened, honest, and gentlemanly feelings are not represented by such feelings as are expressed in papers containing matters of the kind of that we have now under consideration.

Motion, "That the article and the extract which have been read are a breach of the privileges of this House," agreed to.

Mr. Larnach.—I now move, That the proprietors of the paper—William Scott Wilson, Joseph Liston Wilson, and Alfred George Horton—be ordered to attend at the bar of this House at half-past two o'clock on this day week.

Sir H. A. Atkinson.—I should only like to say on this question that, while, as I have said, I sympathize very warmly with the honourable gentleman, it is right to express my opinion that no good can come of this proceeding. The machinery which we have at our disposal, and which the honourable gentleman seeks to put in motion, is so cumbrous as to be almost unworkable; and in my experience, which has now been pretty long, we have always failed on occasions of this sort to bring home adequate punishment to the persons who have committed a wrong against us. The Whole machinery will have to be altered before we can get any satisfaction for attacks of this kind. I therefore hope that my honourable friend will be able to see his way to be satisfied with the resolution which has been passed by this House, and not proceed further. However, if he will not withdraw the resolution, but presses it on, I say at once that I shall vote for it, although I shall regret that he has proceeded further.

Sir J. Hall.—When the Premier rose I was about to rise to make remarks to the same effect as he has done. I need not add to what has already fallen from so many honourable members an expression of my indignation at the abominable statements in the newspaper which has been read with regard to the honourable member for the Peninsula. I think we have only done our duty in declaring this article to be a gross breach of privilege. I further say that, if the honourable gentleman presses his motion that the publishers be called to the bar of the House, I shall be compelled to vote for it. But, as an old member of this House, and as an old friend of the honourable gentleman's, I suggest that it would be much bettor to leave the matter where it now stands, and be content with what we have already done. We have de- page 6 clared that the statement is a breach of privilege; and the honourable gentleman and the House should now treat the matter with contempt. I agree with the Premier that the usual procedure on the part of this House in connection with breaches of privileges is upon a most unsatisfactory basis. I have known many cases in which action has been taken; but i have never known of a case being brought to a satisfactory issue. I have never known the House in any one of these cases get out of the difficulty in a satisfactory manner. Therefore I suggest that, even supposing the honourable gentleman's character required vindication—and it stands so high both in this House and in the country that it requires nothing of the kind—it has been amply vindicated by the resolution we have passed; and I hope he will think it unnecessary to go further. However, as I have already said, if he thinks it advisable to do so I shall certainly vote for the motion that he has made.

Mr. Verrall.—Sir, evil communications, we know, corrupt good manners; and, as I am sitting so near the bar of the House, I hope the honourable gentleman will withdraw the motion, in order to save me from the danger of sitting so near to the persons whom it is proposed to call to the bar.

Mr. Fulton.—I should like to add my opinion to those already expressed by the Premier and the honourable member for Selwyn, and advise the honourable member for the Peninsula to be content with the action that the House has taken in declaring this article to be a breach of privilege. The honourable gentleman's character stands so high that, if for one moment any reflection could be suffered to rest upon him, surely such expressions of opinion as have been heard this afternoon, coupled with the resolution that, without one dissentient voice, has been passed, render it quite unnecessary that he should take any further action. I trust that he will see his way to allow the matter to rest where it is.

Dr. Fitcmett.—I am sorry that I cannot agree with the last speaker. The House owes a duty to itself. It seems to me that, unless this House is going to allow itself to be made an object of contempt throughout the country, it should maintain its own dignity when it is attacked in the disgraceful way in which it has been attacked in the present case. It is true that a scandalous attack has been made upon the honourable member for the Peninsula. It is equally true that the honour of the House is attacked. Fortunately, the honourable member's character does not need any defence. With the House it is different, for one of its own members is the assailant. The Premier says—and the honourable member for Selwyn supports him in it—that, this resolution having been carried, the honourable member for the Peninsula should be satisfied; but it seems to me that, if the matter be dropped now, the consequence will be that libellous attacks on honourable members will be made with impunity, because the publishers will know that the machinery of the House is such that no punishment is likely to follow. If our machinery is not perfect, that is not a reason for taking no action; it is rather a reason why we should make our machinery perfect. For my own part I hope that the motion will not be withdrawn. So far as the honourable member for the Peninsula is concerned, he very well afford to treat the libel with contempt; but I regard the question as one affecting the honour of the House.

Mr. Samuel.—In theory, no doubt, the honourable member for Dunedin Central is perfectly right; but perhaps he has not reflected upon the practical aspect of the case. There are three courses that might be [unclear: adopted] the motion of the honourable member for the Peninsula is carried. In the first place the publishers of this false and scandalous libel—for such undoubtedly it is—[unclear: might] brought to the bar of the House. Then they would be called upon to make some [unclear: state] or explanation; for people in such [unclear: cases] usually called upon for their defence before the House proceeds further. Then, these persons having made some statement, it will be for the House to decide what shall be door Then there would be several courses opening The first and the most usual course acceding to the precedents that I have hastily the suited, would be to severely reprimand the publishers for the offence committed. Another course would be to commit the [unclear: publishers] prison. In several cases that has been does but, so far as I am able to see, the [unclear: power] only been exercised in times of public [unclear: troc] or where the libel has attracted such [unclear: un] sal attention outside that it has been [unclear: sary] to take some strong action. A their course would be to order a State procession. That is usually done when the which house is reflected upon. We have [unclear: had] stances of prosecutions of that sort, [unclear: and] know what has been the result. We know that in one case in this colony a [unclear: prosecution] instituted by the State, and the [unclear: result] very unsatisfactory: and the person [unclear: prose] was returned as a member of the House [unclear: wi] a few months afterwards. Now, looking at the matter practically, it does seem to me [unclear: that] advice given by the Premier and the honourable member for Selwyn is sound [unclear: advice]. doubt, in such a case an honourable member placed in the position of the honourable member for the Peninsula is not the best judge a to the course to be adopted. He [unclear: would] more than human if he did not [unclear: resent] strongly this scandalous libel, and [unclear: des] If most full investigation into the facts [unclear: mage not readable] think it would be well that we [unclear: should] go further in the matter, and put the publishers of the libel in the position of [unclear: mar] for I very much regret to say that in the present tone of public morality I [unclear: am] that such would be the effect. I [unclear: am] that many people, instead of [unclear: deprecation] attacks, will, give the printers of [unclear: the] credit for boldness in writing and [unclear: printing] matter irrespective of consequences to the selves. For these reasons, and not [unclear: from] page 7 with that these men should be in any way suffered to escape the punisment they richly deserve, and which I greatly regret I cannot see any means of inflicting, I hope the honourable gentleman will not proceed further.

Mr. Tubnbull.—At the first blush I thought it would be the proper course to pursue to call these persons to the bar of the House; but there is this peculiar circumstance to be considered: that it is really a member of the House who is the culprit—the person who supplied the information. The persons who published this statement have only accepted and published information which they had received from a member of the House. In fact, they have been misled by a member of the House; and, if punishment is to be inflicted at all, it should be inflicted upon the member who was the cause of this breach of privilege rather than upon the publishers. No doubt they would consider themselves justified in apposing that information was correct when it came from a person of such reputation as the Honourable member who has given this Information. Taking this into consideration, I do not think we should proceed further. Fortunately, we know that the honourable member for the Peninsula occupies a high position in this House and in the country as a man of the very highest honour and integrity, and I am sure he will not have been harmed by this libel. For the reason I have given I do not think that the House should proceed further, and I hope the honourable member will see his way to take that view.

Captain Russell.—I also should like to age honourable gentleman not to proceed further: not that I fear that if we go further the gentlemen who have published the libel will be elected members of the House, but I feel that the powers which we have in this matter are such as are not at all suited to giving effect to what would be our wishes in such matter. People may almost defy this House to do its worst, because, although we might go through the form of sentencing persons who are guilty of breaches to be taken charge of, as a matter of fact there is no punishment in that. In fact, I think that the honorable gentleman who has been attacked might have been content to take no steps in the matter at all. A member occupying his established position could have afforded to laugh at a paragraph reflecting upon him in this way; for, as has been already pointed out, there is probably no man in New Zealand who is more thoroughly respected than the honourable gentlemen, or who is more above suspension doing mean or dishonourable acts why therefore, he should have taken such section to this I do not quite see. But, Sir, think that the unfortunate gentleman who has been the originator of the scandal that has been published, if he is, as I believe him to be, a man capable of entertaining generous emotions, has had to bear sufficient punishment by [unclear: tening] to the course of the debate this abstersion Any punishment that we could inflict upon the publishers or printers would sink into absolute insignificance as compared with what he must have felt: and that, in itself, is a reason why we should not proceed further.

Mr. O'Callaghan.—The difficulty in connection with accepting the proposal to take no further action seems to be, to know where we are going to draw the line. We shall not know how or where to put a stop to this thing. Hero we have a gross libel committed against a member of the House. Where is it to stop? the next libel may be upon a dozen members of the House; or we may nave the Premier libelled.

Sir H. A. Atkinson.—I am quite used to that.

Mr. O'Callaghan.—The difficulty is really to say where the line should be drawn. The honourable member for the Bay of Islands, I would point out, has already had a very strong warning from his friends of the danger of making rejections upon members of the House. We know that some tune ago he was at a meeting in this city, where it was proposed that members of the House should be prayed for, and he said that members were past praying for, and that he would not sit in the House, only he realised that it was the will of the Lord that he should be here. He was warned by his friends in this House that it was an unjustifiable remark for him to make, and he made a sort of an apology. He has made a sort of an apology again to-day. But he is going on from bad to worse, and the question is us much whether we can compel him to do rightly as whether we can prevent newspapers of the colony from being guilty of the conduct of which this northern newspaper has been guilty. I really think that even if we do no more than bring the proprietors to the bar of this House, and there show them the action of which they have been guilty, and fine them, as I believe we have power to do, and touch their pockets, it will, at any rate, act as a warning, and show them that they must not do the same kind of thing again. I am sorry to hear so many members of the House advise the honourable member for the Peninsula to let the matter drop. I do not think he ought to let it drop, but I think we should support him in his motion to bring the offenders before the bar of the House.

Mr. Larnach.—Sir, after the kindly and generous expressions of feeling that have fallen from the Premier and other honourable members, I am disposed to leave the matter entirely in the hands of the House, and, if honourable members think such a course as suggested by the Premier would be desirable, I am quite willing to withdraw my motion.

Mr. Barron.—I think, if the honourable member were to ask for another day for the discussion of this matter, and if the debate were adjourned, it would be the better course, because that would give him an opportunity of coming to a decision as to whether it would be more advisable to let the matter drop, or to proceed with his motion that the offenders should be brought to the bar of the House. I presume that the motion would still have precedence as a question of privilege if now adjourned; and, if he should not now decide to page 8 withdraw it, such a course would give the honourable gentleman an opportunity of considering whether or not he should go on with his motion.

Mr. Levestam.—I trust the honourable member for the Peninsula will not withdraw his motion. It has been stated on all sides of the House—and we all cordially agree—that the honourable gentleman has a character so high that an accusation of this kind cannot hurt him. I quite agree that it will not hurt his character; but will the honourable gentleman stand any the less in the estimation of his fellow-members if he follows up his motion that the publisher of the article be brought to the bar of the House? We have been told that it would be difficult, and that the machinery is very elaborate: and it is true that we cannot inflict any real punishment; but we could very well order that a prosecution should be undertaken against the offenders at the expense of the country in a case of this kind the honourable member has been most grossly libelled; and it is too much that when an honourable member has been exposed to libel simply because he is a member of this House, and has done his duty to the country, he should be put to the expense of a private prosecution. The House and the country might well order a prosecution at the public expense, and I hope the House will agree to such a course.

Mr. O'Conor.—There are very few members of the House who sympathize more heartily than I do with the honourable member for the Peninsula at the present time. I do not think, however, that the assertion that the publication of this article is a broach of privilege would at all adequately express the offence of which the writer has been guilty. I am not one of those who think that matters of this kind should be treated lightly, or should be spoken of in an uncertain way. I think that, to the fellow-colonists who have known the honourable gentleman for so long, the announcement that we consider the article as a breach of privilege will not convey at all what we feel about that honourable gentleman. Members of this House will feel as much soreness and resentment as he can possibly feel on the subject; and it is just as well for us to take care that we do not take up a position which our outraged feelings would lead us to take. To arraign the proprietors of the paper before the bar of the House would be giving those persons a notoriety which would scarcely do them any harm, and would not mete out to them any punishment at all adequate to their offence, nor would it perhaps bring in the other persons who are also guilty. A resolution of the House condemning the article as untruthful and full of calumny, and as one that might be said to have been maliciously directed against the undeserving head of the honourable gentleman, would be better than a resolution declaring the article to be a breach of privilege. Breaches of privilege may be committed in many instances in connection with which our feelings would not be sympathized with by the public. In this case, however, we, as member of this House who have been associated with the honourable gentleman in that capacity far so long, feel as an insult the cowardly means taken to give the honourable gentleman a such in the back at a time when he is about to take his departure from the colony. I hope, how ever, the honourable gentleman will not alive himself to be influenced by those who urge high to press on his motion, but that he will leave the matter to be dealt with by the Press and the people of the colony. If any thing follow from this House it should be a resolution condemning, as representatives of the people, the action of the paper in publishing an article containing so gross and untruthful a calumny.

Mr. Fitzherbert.—I understand the honourable member for the Peninsula had signified his willingness to leave this matter is the hands of the House. I am one of there who think we should support our privileges as all risks, and that it is most improper to allow statements of this kind to be made in the newspapers without taking some serious nation of them. At the present time there is any doubt that these newspaper proprietors are saying that nothing will come of this mater and if we pass no resolution we shall be laughed at by this and every newspaper in the colony. Some honourable members have and that the honourable member for the Bay of Islands is responsible for what appeared in this paper, and that he gave wrong information and misled the proprietors. I have no doubt he has done so. This being the case—that the proprietors have been misled in the matter—I think we might give them to, say, this day week to apologize; and, if they refuse to do so, then let them appear at the bar of the House. This will, I think, meet everything. If they are sorry for the mistake they have made will have an ample opportunity of making a suitable apology. But if, knowing that they have been misled and that they have make a mistake, they still adhere to it by not apologizing, then they should be brought up at the bar of the House. I would suggest, therefore that they be informed that, if they do not apologize by Tuesday, by telegram, they shall be brought up at the bar of the House this day week. I think this is a fair proposal, [unclear: and] that should be viewed as such by this House and by the country.

Mr. Moss.—I should like to point out to the honourable member for the Peninsula that if this motion is put we are bound to carry it, because to negative it would be place him in a false position. At the same time I should like also to say, as an Auckland member, and knowing the proprietors of the Auckland Herald, that I am perfectly sure [unclear: no] would more regret than they the line that has been taken in that paper. Let us remember, to justice to the writer, that the first mover in this matter—the honourable member for the Play of Islands—is a gentleman of great piety, a gentleman leading in religious movements a the Province of Auckland, and who these page 9 fore, from his position and from his pretensions, would be regarded as an authority not to be doubted. No one would for a moment suppose that that honourable gentleman could part the part of Paul Pry, or that he would delight, in a baseless innuendo. A charge made by a gentleman of such pretensions, and in his position in the House, would naturally be accepted by a newspaper man as coming with greater weight than if it came from an ordinary member of the House. As an Auckland member, I have more than once regretted that charges of this kind in connection with small things, which other members would think unworthy of their notice, have become characteristic of some of us Auckland members; and I take the opportunity of saying in vindication of the people of Auckland, that I am sure conduct of that kind is as little to the taste of the majority of the people there as to other members of this House, or to other portions of the colony. It is the people of Auckland whoso reputation is largely affected by proceedings of this kind. There are small great men who try to make for themselves a miserable reputation by meddling in small things, and aspersing their fellow-men. But they are not supported by the people at large,—only by a few select persons who believe they are better than their neighbours—a belief in which their neighbours do not share. I should be very glad if the honourable member for the Peninsula—though I do not presume to advise him in the matter, there is no member in the House for whom I have greater regard or respect—would see his way to adopt the suggestion that has been made, that the motion be withdrawn.

Mr. W. P. Reeves.—I should not speak on this question, being a young member, and not an authority on questions of precedent, but I am a working newspaper man and have been concerned in newspaper management for a number of years. I have the pleasure of knowing the proprietors of the New Zealand Herald, and I know the way in which articles of this sort find their way into newspapers. I feel no doubt that the paper in question which we know to be a highly respectable one, has been simply misled. Its correspondent here has received information which he thought he was entitled to consider correct judging from the source from which it was obtained. This information he has transmitted to the paper, and the editor has written this exceedingly improper article. The proprietors and publishers of the paper, who are well known as highly respectable men of business, knew nothing of the article, and I do not suppose they knew any thing at all of the matter until they read it in their own paper, and, when they did read it, probably their opinion of it was that is was truthful and correct. Knowing these gentlemen as I do, I feel certain that, if resolution stigmatizing the article in proper terms is transmitted to them, they will at once cause a suitable apology to be inserted in their paper. I am sure that the last thing they would wish to do would be to libel a member of this House. Therefore, Sir, if the honourable member for the Peninsula will withdraw his resolution, I shall move one to this effect: That, in the opinion of this House, the article in the New Zealand Herald attacking the honourable member for the Peninsula is untruthful and improper; and that the attention of the proprietors be drawn to the matter. There is no doubt that this is a gross breach of privilege, but I also know that the general opinion among proprietors of newspapers is that calling them to the bar of the House is simply a cheap advertisement for them. They look upon it as a comicality and a joke; and if the House wishes to turn this matter into a joke it will order the proprietors of this newspaper to be taken into custody by the Serjeant-at-Arms. That will give them any amount of publicity, and the chances are, as the honourable member for New Plymouth has pointed out, that the editor will be returned to this House at the next elections. I feel sure that if we pass such a resolution as I propose an ample apology will very soon appear in this newspaper.

Mr. Fish.—It appears to me that the proper course for the House to pursue is to pass the resolution which is now before it. I have not the slightest doubt that the editor of this newspaper has written the article in question on information supplied to him. Still, that does not do away with the necessity for a retractation being made by the paper. If the resolution is carried, and the editor has acted on insufficient information, I feel sure that it will be a great pleasure to him to apologize at once; and then the House could stay its hand. If, on the other hand, the editor does not take that course, then the House will have a right to believe that the article was written with malice prepense; and the proprietors should be summoned before the House. I do not think that the punishment which the House can mete out to a person of that sort is so light as has been indicated by the last speaker. There is no doubt that under certain circumstances the House may lose dignity in attempting to punish individuals; but, still I believe it has the power to sentence a person to three months' imprisonment in gaol, and not merely in the custody of our genial Serjeant-at-Arms.

Mr. Speaker.—Any committal would be terminated by the prorogation of Parliament.

Mr. Fish.—Then the punishment would be slight. However, I am under the impression that the article has been written under a misapprehension through wrong facts having been supplied, and therefore that the writer would be only too glad to apologize.

Mr. Lance.—I have listened with very great pain to this debate, and the more I think over the matter the more am I convinced that the honourable member for the Peninsula would do well to withdraw his resolution. The universally-expressed opinion from all sides of the House as to the action taken in this matter is so strong that if I were in the honourable gentleman's place—and the best way to form a judgment is by putting yourself in the place of page 10 the person interested—I should at once decide to treat everybody connected with this transaction with the utmost contempt, and take no further action in the matter.

Mr. Hobbs.—There have been several insinuations made that I supplied certain information to the correspondent of this newspaper in Wellington. I wish to say that I have not had any conversation or communication directly or indirectly with that gentleman. Any statements which I have made were made on the floor of this House, and have been published in Hansard. I have no other remark to make, except that I regret very much that honourable members should choose, year after year, to refer to a matter with which I was connected when I attended a Church anniversary in this city and took the chair, and where I was reported to have sail' that the members of this House were past praying for. I never said that. What I said was that they were not past praying for.

Mr. T. Thompson.—I desire to express my full sympathy with the honourable member for the Peninsula in this matter, and I also desire to express my regret that such an article should have appeared in an Auckland newspaper. I feel sure that the course suggested by the honourable member for Cheviot is the right one, and I have reason to believe that the honourable member for the Peninsula will adopt that course. If not, however, I shall vote with him. I am sure the honourable member for St. Albans is correct in saying that the proprietors of this newspaper have little or no knowledge of the matter; and possibly the persons managing the paper have been misled by the statement made in this House. I have known the proprietors of this paper for more than thirty years, and I am sure they will regret, as much as any member of this House, that an article such as that complained of should have appeared in their journal.

Mr. Beetham.—I hope the honourable member for the Peninsula will listen to the view so plainly expressed that this matter should not be pressed to a division; but, if it is, I shall vote with him rather than place him in a false position. A great many remarks have been made with regard to the newspapers of this colony; but to me it seems that they are to a great extent a reflex of the opinions, often too plainly expressed, of this House. The Premier has drawn attention to the necessity for care in the remarks we make here relating to the character of honourable members. If we are not careful we have no right to express surprise that the newspapers should follow our example. In this case I think remarks have been made with respect to the honourable member for the Bay of Islands which are not warranted. I acknowledge that his action has indicated misdirected zeal, and I do not wish for a moment to defend that action. I believe that the zeal for economy which has so influenced the Auckland members on several occasions made him outrun his discretion, and I quite admit that he was in no way warranted in making such a statement as he did. The character of the honourable member for the Peninsula stands so high that he may fairly leave the matter with the first resolution, which has been carried. From what we have heard said with regard to the proprietors of the New Zealand Herald, I think we have every reason to believe that that paper will tender a full apology.

Mr. Larnach.—I have already said that I am willing to withdraw the motion, and I now go further and express my desire to withdraw it if the House will give me permission, leaving myself free to act otherwise.

Motion, by leave, withdrawn.

Mr. Seddon.—I think something more should be done. The article in questional now be embodied in the record of our proceedings; and, having heard the expressions of sympathy of many honourable gentlemen for the honourable member for the Peninsula, I desire that we, as a House, should express that sympathy in a formal manner. Persons who real the record of this day's proceedings of House will read the article, and I think they should at the same time see what the recorded opinion of the House is on the question, I therefore move, That this House expresses its sympathy with the honourable member for the Peninsula, and regrets that such an untruthful and libellous article in reference to him should have been published in the New Zealand Herald. I think the House will be unanimous in passing that resolution. I may also say speaking of this paper, that I have always looked upon it as one of the leading journals of the colony, and one not at all likely to go in such a direction as this. I am also acquainted with the gentleman who is acting as its corespondent here, and I am sure his correspondence, as a rule, does not go in this direction and other honourable members must also have seen that he always gives fair-play. It is very unfortunate affair the honourable member for the Bay of Islands has done all he can to repair the mistake he made, which he himself acknowledges was a very serious one. He having apologised, I do not think other members of the House should fall too heavily on an honourable member who did what he conceived to be his duty. I hope this will be a lesson to him, and to other honourable members not to question the probity of or throw aspersions our their fellows.

Colonel Fraser.—I have great pleasure in seconding the motion. I have been for years acquainted with the proprietors of this journal and I may say that it is one of the best conducted periodicals published in New Zealand From what I know of the proprietors, I am sure that, after what has passed to-day, they will make the fullest reparation to the honourable member for the Peninsula. I think it is nothing but right that the expression of feeling of the House should be recorded on this unfortunate matter.

Mr. Lawry.—Sir, I have only briefly to say that, although I have known the honourable member for the Peninsula for but a short time, I can indorse everything that has been said about him by honourable members in this page 11 House this afternoon. I may further say that I have been myself intimately associated with the New Zealand Herald as one of its correspondents for a very long period of time, and I feel assured that the proprietors of that paper will not only feel, but will express, extreme regret that the article was written from a misconception of the facts of the case. I may further state that I know personally the special correspondent of that journal, and I think the members of this House will agree with me when I say that he simply sent a fair record of what occurred on the floor of this House, and nothing more or less. I have also reason to know, Sir, that the article in question, which is a most scurrilous and [unclear: tcuthful] one, was written without the knowledge the proprietors of that paper. It was written at the North Shore, and the writer himself next day expressed regret that he had written the article which was published in the

Mr. Whyte.—He wrote another article two day after quite as bad.

Mr. Lawry.—Whilst I thank honourable gentlemen for the expression of opinion towards the proprietors of that journal, I can only express my extreme regret that article ever appeared in its columns.

Mr. Parata.—I am sure every member of this House is sorry at the cause that took away the honourable member for the Peninsula from his parliamentary duties, and still more sorry that his going away on that occasion should have been made the opportunity of bringing charges against him. I have" known that honourable gentleman a considerable time, and I know that the Maoris in the South Island have a very warm regard for him. I am sure we all regret learning that the honourable gentleman will shortly leave this colony; but, no matter where he goes, we shall all bear in mind the good work he has done, and shall all regret his departure from amongst us. I feel impelled on this occasion to say something on behalf of the Native members of this House. When I first had the, honour of a seat in this House, that honourable gentleman personally, and every member of the Government, assisted me in every possible manner in doing what they thought was best in the interests of both races. I am extremely gratified that the honourable gentleman has given way to the wish of the House and withdrawn his resolution. But he deserves our thanks for having brought this matter forward, because the manner in which he was referred to was derogatory and improper. I regret the honourable member for the Bay of Islands stated what he did.

Motion agreed to.