Proposed Establishment of an Australasian Arsenal.

Mr. Douglas, in moving,—"That in the opinion of this Council it is desirable to establish an arsenal on the mainland of Australia for the purpose of manufacturing and supplying munitions of war for Australasia," said: This matter has been formed at the instigation of the War department of this colony, by which it is represented that such an establishment would be one of the greatest convenience and utility. During the recent Russian scare, when applications were made to the Imperial Government for a supply of arms and ammunition, the reply always was that it was impossible to supply, within a given time, all the demands for war material sent in by the different colonies. That difficulty will become still greater as the colonies progress and population increases. This is not by any means a now question, for I find that in India there are three places where works of this kind have been established. Some central position in the colonies might be chosen for the establishment of an arsenal for the manufacture of small arms, gunpowder, and the lighter kind of ordnance; and I believe it has already been recommended that something of the sort should be lone in New South Wales. It must be apparent to all of us that something of the kind is required in the colonies, and without enlarging further on the subject, I beg to move the motion standing in my name.

Mr. Griffith seconded the motion, and said: I second this motion, Mr. President, for the purpose of initiating a discussion upon it. But I have some doubts as to whether it is expedient to pass this resolution at the present time. I fancy the establishment of an arsenal is a matter for which the time is not yet ripe. I mean to say that a great deal will have to be done before an arsenal can be established. We shall have to set the colonies to work together a great deal more than they do at present, and to agree to some general scheme of defence of which that may be made a part. That it is desirable I entirely agree, I pointed it out in a memorandum I wrote myself on the 1st of June last, to which reference has already been made, and I suggested that Sydney would probably be the best place at which to establish it. But it is quite clear that before that can be done the colonies must have come to some much better understanding than at present exists—and they will have had to form a joint purse for these purposes. The whole matter requires a great deal of consideration and negotiation, and I should be glad to think that satisfactory arrangements concerning it might be made within a reasonable time. I, myself, am inclined to think, and I regret to do so, that, during the pro-sent year we shall have very powerfully impressed on us the necessity for joint action. I hope we shall not be involved in any danger of war, but I shall be glad indeed if the colonies can be brought to see the importance of being ready. I do not think it makes much difference whether this motion is carried or not, but, on the whole, I am inclined to think that it is at the present time premature.

Mr. Berry: I do not see, sir, any objection to carrying this resolution. There is no doubt that it is the opinion of this Council, as I believe it is the opinion of every sensible man in the whole of these communities, that the establishment of an arsenal is necessary. It is quite true we have no power to do it, but I think that since the resolution is merely an expression of opinion that it might be passed, and that it is quite possible that an page 124 expression of opinion coming from this Council, and being made public, may impress upon the individual colonies the necessity for some action in this direction. I think that in our own colony, Mr. President, it has been felt for many years past that the fact that no steps have been taken to establish a manufactory of gunpowder is a dereliction of duty. We are spending a great sum of money in procuring armaments of defence, erecting batteries, etc., but for the ammunition of war, we are dependent on importation. I know that about 20 years ago a recommendation was made in Victoria by a select committee that a manufactory of gunpowder should be instituted, but I believe nothing was done in regard to it. I think that it is only by bringing this subject constantly before the public that we can hope to see action taken, and the consideration of this matter naturally brings before us the fact that the usefulness of this Council is largely interfered with by the absence of certain colonies. There is no doubt that it is an additional reason, and it will commend itself to almost every person's mind that there is a reason why this Federal Council should be complete by its next session. There is no doubt that when the time arrives when every colony is represented, and when, as a corollary, the members of each colony shall be increased, so that the Federal Council may consist of not less than a score or perhaps, probably, between that and 30 members, there will be then such a body, speaking with authority and acting in a thorough federated spirit, that this question will be dealt with, not as a matter of opinion, but with decision, and that the various Legislatures will either give their representatives powers over what they have at present, or by themselves, on the recommendation of the Federal Council, make such provisions affecting defence as the necessities of the case demand. I can see no objection whatever, as the motion has been moved and seconded, and is now fairly before the Council, that the Council should pass it, and I only regret that we are not in a position to give effect to it. I believe that it will challenge public attention, and be an additional reason for a complete federation of the different legislatures, and that either by legislative action or remission of this question to a future meeting of the Federal Council, that action of this kind will be taken.

Mr. Dickson: I hardly see the use of a motion to which no effect could be given, and it seems to me that the discussion opens up a much larger question than is before us in this motion. It is a great question—a question of finance with which we have not power to deal, and which, I think, must be relegated to the different colonies for consideration. I would propose that the resolution, if it is to be passed, should read:—That, in the opinion of this Council, it is desirable that the Legislatures of the different colonies be invited to consider the establishment of an arsenal. I imagine that that would have a more practical effect, and I would recommend the mover of the resolution to put it in this shape. It appears to me that there are many questions involved in the consideration of this question which would require to be discussed in the respective Legislatures, and in fact it opens up a question of possible in tercolonial jealousy as to where the site of this arsenal should be established. All the considerations in connection with this motion cannot be considered in a discussion of half-an-hour's duration, and as I think it is attempting to aim at too much without giving the slightest intimation as to how we can give practical effect to it, I think the hon. gentleman should be satisfied with this short discussion upon it, and either withdraw the motion or amend it. I think it would be better to withdraw it than let it go forth in its present shape, because I conceive that it would be misunderstood, and give rise to some intercolonial jealousies which would tend to mar the conclusion of our labours for this session.

Mr. Lee Steere: I agree with every word just said by Mr. Dickson. I do not think it would be advisable that in this Council we should agree to a resolution to which there is not the slightest chance for many years of giving practical effect. The establishment of an arsenal in Australia would be a work of immense cost, out of all proportion, I believe, to the means of the colonies interested, and it would give rise also, as the hon. member has said, to a good deal of jealousy as to where this arsenal should be placed, and, therefore, instead of uniting all the colonies and inducing them to enter the Federal Council, I think it would have the opposite effect. I hope the hon. member who has introduced the motion will be induced to withdraw it. He has elicited a discussion, and I hope that having heard an expression of opinion he will withdraw the resolution.

The President: I am inclined on the whole to think that it would be better if the motion was not pressed. The establishment of an arsenal meant not only the establishment of a manufactory for powder, but an establishment to turn out guns. (Hear, hear).

Mr. Douglas: Yes.

The President: Well, that being so I agree with the last speaker that the cost would be enormous, and the circumstances in which we could undertake such an undertaking would be disadvantageous. At Homo they are continually experimenting upon new guns of various sorts, having the other nations of Europe to rub their ideas against and compete with in the discovery of invention. I think it will be a good while before these colonies, even if they were wanted, could possibly establish an arsenal in its fullest sense. The establishment of a manufactory of powder, to supply us with ammunition in time of war, is a different thing altogether, and I think it is very desirable that it should be encouraged. As Mr. Berry said, it has been talked of for 20 years or more. I may mention that for the last two years the Minister of Defence for Victoria has given special attention to this matter, and he informed me that he was at the present time in negotiation with a large English firm who contemplated the establishment in one of the colonies of a powder factory which would be able to supply the whole of the colonics. One difficulty in the establishment of a powder factory for military purposes in any of the colonies is that the supply necessary would be turned out in a very short time, and that during the rest of the year there would be nothing to do—that there is not consumption enough in any one page 125 colony, and probably not in all the colonies. However, if it be possible that the establishment of such an undertaking be brought about in the first place by private enterprise, I think it would be a very good thing for these colonies. Some people may suppose that this is specially an undertaking that would be carried on by the Government, but we know that it is not so even in England. We know that the firm of Sir Wm. Armstrong and other gun makers are continually doing work in the way of providing engines of war for the British Government, and so it is with Krupp in Germany. Thus we need not feel that because a private firm proposes the establishment of an industry of this sort they are usurping the functions which belong to the Government of the Federated Council. I thought I would mention those things as of interest, and I think it would be advisable in all circumstances that the hon. member should not press the motion.

Mr. Douglas: I have no desire, sir, to press the motion on this subject. The opinion of the Council evidently is that something of the sort should be done. The difference is simply the important consideration of the mode in which it should be done. That the colonies require something of this sort is beyond question. No doubt in some of the colonics there would be jealousy in a matter of this sort, but the same thing would occur in regard to the establishment of any other manufactory. I thought that it was desirable that this matter should be discussed in this Council, although it has not the power in this case or in any case to go into any expenditure of money. It has only power to resolve upon such matters, and then it can be discussed by the other Legislatures as to how the money will be expended, but I thought it would be well for this Council to recognise the necessity of an institution of this kind. The excellency of armament is increasing day by clay, and in the event of anything taking place as foreshadowed by Mr. Griffith, we shall find ourselves in the same position as this colony did recently. We were told we could get a supply from England, and would require to wait for two years, and all this delay could have been prevented by local enterprise. It might be argued that powder was being experimented upon as well as armaments, and that the powder made to-day will not be the powder used next day: but that is no reason why we should not go on with this motion. If, as foreshadowed by this Council, there is to be a federation of the colonies as regards armaments, this must be one of the first things taken into consideration. However, the subject will, no doubt, be considered by the respective colonies now that it has to be brought up, and I am quite willing to withdraw my motion.

The motion was accordingly withdrawn.