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Mihaka ~ Landing on Hard Times

You have recently attracted public attention with your stand on the question of Maori land rights How did you become involved in the Maori land movement and how well do you think it has succeeded?

I became involved in the Maori land movement (Te Roopu ote Matakite) when I was released from jail last year.

The first march, the one which went right down the North Island, was led by Whina Cooper because the Te Roopu ote Matakite executive wanted a person who could hold the respect of Maori and Pakeha alike.

I felt that the march would fulfil a useful purpose in educating both the European and Maori people that there was something very wrong with the way Maoris and their land had been treated in the past, and, indeed, at the present time. Even at the start of the march, I Celt that there was a lack of real committment and lack of understanding of the real motive behind many of the march - the motive which I and several of the younger supporters held. This lack of understanding of the real political contradictions led to the choice of leader of the march.

And a [unclear: octeginarian] with plenty of emotional appeal would do that quite well.

Exactly Unfortunately they were politically naive in not realising that this was not a purely New Zealand problem. Instead it reflected the historical development and the changing situation throughout the world. They didn't analyse the forces of oppression - they didn't take that into consideration.

They realised that there would be certain consequences resulting from the main march, but when they happened they were not prepared to accept them. They did exactly as the authorities hoped they would do - they packed up and left, to wait for another 135 years until some other clown decides to get up and portest about the rapidly diminishing Maori lands.

You have formed an organisation called the United Peoples Liberation Movement of Aoteroa (UPLMOA) to try and keep the rapidly disintegrating spirit of land protest alive. How sucessful do you think you have been?

To start off with, I think you have got our objectives wrong. It is to keep alive the spirit of the protest, but not specifically land, nor specifically anything else. We take the view that the entire human existance is based on land, dependant on land and one must realise and understand his relationship to land in order to look at this matter correctly and properly.

I don't see this whole protest project as being a purely Maori protest. In a capitalist society like ours the only place you can get a peoples majority is amongst the masses themselves - the collective oppressed people of New Zealand - you cannot hope to get a majority of Maoris.

The importance of getting a peoples majority cannot be stressed enough. I feel that the people of New Zealand have reached the stage where they are prepared to look a little closer at how they live and to follow the example of the people of many other countries to overthrow, by any means possible, the forces of oppression. And the leaders of this movement are not going to be the intellectuals - they are going to be people who can identify with the real feelings and aspirations of the people. And the place we are starting this movement is in the courtrooms.

Which leads me on to the point that one of the major parts of your protest is an attempt, in the short term, at judicial reform? Do you think that the problems evident in the 'system of justice' in operation in this society is merely a veneer for the true inconsistencies of the capitalist system?

If we look at any matter concerning land or education or even law, one has to look at the design of government. The judicial system in this country cannot be easily changed or altered because it is so intrinisically tied in with the government structure - a structure which cannot be changed by you or I or anybody else. The highest court we can take our grieviances to isn't even in this country - its the Privy Council. Every three years you vote for policies put forward by a particular party but you don't vote for the judiciary.

There is no point in saying that one of my major purposes is to look for judicial changes, because they form only one part of the changes that I am trying to bring about. Overall I believe in a change in the entire system of government. The state we are in now is a police state, and the magistrates courts are police courts. This is the thing we have to tell the people. I think we are doing this quite successfully. People are beginning to see the blatant inconsistencies of this whole police state and police law.

The vehicle through which you are trying to effect the changes is the United Peoples Liberation Movement of Aoteoroa. I would contend that this is an organisation which exists only to further your own personal political opinion. Do you think this is true?

You could be right in terms of thought. The ideas have basically been mine, but they are the reflections of studies and observations and experiences which nobody else in the movement has.

On the other hand, yours is hardly a mass movement. How many people are there in your movement?

Ideally there are hundreds of thousands - millions.

Ideally there are millions in Alf's Imperial Army too. Could you make some attempt at giving me a workable figure?

We can say that there are 21 who marched (for the second time) along the motorway, plus another dozen on the East Coast.

I would suspect that even if you were a man who was highly regarded by the New Zealand public your organisation would still form quite a small pressure group for a long time. The image you have built up is the image of the perennial loser. Do you feel that this in any way affects the strength of your movement?

Personally, I believe it is difficult to classify me as a loser. Even though I don't have a steady job or many possessions I am still in control of my own thinking and my own viewpoints.

It is merely unfortunate that you cannot communicate these viewpoints to the famous 'average New Zealander' because you do not fulfil any of his criteria of humanity: a wife, 2.3 children, a house with a mortgage, a respectable job and a Holden stationwagon. How do you expect to get through to these people?

Those are the ones I want to listen to me. Most people exist today rather than live: the whole life of the people you refer to is the eternal triangle, home - work - pub - home.

These people are not living. Some have to work overtime or take two jobs to keep up with the Joneses. These people must be getting disenchanted, and I am trying to tell it like it is.

They are not listening to you.

They will.

I think not and I would like to end up with a quote. You have said that you follow Marxist-Leninist principles, so here are the words of Lenin. I think they are appropriate:

"It would be an obvious mistake to give free rein to ranters and phrase-mongers who allow themselves to be carried away by the 'dazzling' revolutionary spirit but who are incapable of sustained, thoughtful and deliberate revolutionary work which takes into account the most difficult stages of transition between capitalism and socialism'