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Salient Interview

Inspector Joyce, the Police Officer at the demonstrations on Thursday night, II June, and Saturday morning. 13 June—was to have been the subject of this interview concerning the activities of police and demonstrators during the anti-Tour protests on 11-13 June. When two Salient reporters arrived at the Central Police Station for the interview, however, they were informed that the interview was to be with Superintendent Saunders, the Police Officer in charge of the Wellington District. Inspector Joyce was present during the interview with Superintendent Saunders, who was not present at any of the demonstrations.

Do you think either police or demonstrators have learned anything from the weekend's activities?

Saunders: It's not a simple matter. We believe in the demonstrator's right to demonstrate. There are times when the police are provoked and arrests must be made. Now what's your attitude, you've got a slant haven't you? You must be biased. Why do you ask questions like this? You don't believe all this American business do you?

What do you mean?

Saunders: Well you're students aren't you? What have you written so far in your leaders and articles? What have you said?

Well no editorial has been written yet. I have written a lengthy news story which makes no allegations and merely recites the facts of the situation.

Saunders: Well you must know that demonstrators provoked the police. Are you going to write about this?

Yes, if we get evidence of misbehaviour on the part of demonstrators we will record it. We have asked for statements from people present and have made it clear that we also want any evidence of violent action by demonstrators. We know that some people threw things and we will print statements to this effect if we receive them. We hope we do. Now what is your opinion of the behaviour of the police? Have you asked for reports?

Saunders: Our men are briefed before every demonstration and are told to be tolerant and not to be provoked. Many people have been amazed at the tolerance shown by the police in the face of insults. Any ordinary person wouldn't put up with it and it is expecting a high standard of the police that they should. On the whole the police acted with restraint.

You say "on the whole". So you concede that there were exceptions?

Saunders: I'm not conceding anything. For all I know some individual officers may have retaliated under extreme provocation. I think the Wellington public would take with a pinch of salt any allegations of police brutality. Demonstrators have usually been pretty good in Wellington but there are a few people who could want to cause trouble. Don't you agree?

Perhaps, but it may interest you to know that on the Friday night a vote was held at Victoria where the issue was whether the demonstration would be quiet, orderly and disciplined. The great majority voted in favour of this; to my knowledge only three or four dissented.

Saunders: Was Shadbolt there then?

No, he arrived later in the morning.

Saunders: Well what do you think of what he did—he was breaking the law wasn't he?

He wasn't violent and he probably considered that this was the best way to make his feelings known.

I don't know the exact legislation but it is laid down that a policeman on duty must wear his full uniform. In the police regulations it states that a number is part of the uniform. A number of police officers were not wearing their numbers.

Saunders: I doubt that very much. Higher ranks aren't required to wear numbers. These are the ones you will have seen. They wouldn't be constables.

Well I have a photograph here of a police constable at Wellington Airport. He is quite plainly not wearing a number.

Saunders: (looking at photograph) Well I can't really tell.

Joyce: (looking at photograph handed to him by Saunders) You must remember that numbers are very small—they may be torn off in transit or get lost. Why are you so concerned about numbers?

Because they are the only way of identifying a police constable who may, in the opinion of those involved, have acted in an excessively violent fashion. Police officers consistently refused to give their names and avoided having their photograph taken.

Saunders: This is a democratic country—if a stranger asks your name do you give it? If a police officer asks you your name would you give it?

If you're arrested you have to.

Saunders: I'm not talking about arrests. Would you give your name to a police officer if there were no chance of arrest?

If I had nothing to hide, yes I would.

Saunders: Police don't have to give names nor do they have to have their photograph taken.

Talking of photographs, I noted on Friday night that a police photographer photographed each person as they were put in the van. They were held towards the camera and photographed. Under S.56 of the relevant Act they are required to give their fingerprints, footprints and photograph only at the police station when in custody. This was done in the street.

Saunders: The Act states what those arrested are required to give. We can take what photos we like. The person can refuse.

And if they refused would they be charged with obstruction?

Saunders: No.

A photographer photographing the violence was charged with obstruction, Another photographer Ans—Westra—claimed that her camera was struck by a policeman on Friday night. She demanded an apology and received one. She asked an Inspector if it was police policy to hinder photographers. He said no but the next day she complained that police held their hands over her camera lens several times.

Saunders: If a woman goes to these demonstrations she must expect to get knocked around. As for the hands over the camera, well I can't believe that (shaking his head at Joyce).

The photographer arrested for obstruction claims that when the police took his camera off him at the station they exposed the film.

Saunders: I don't believe that.

Joyce: (looking at Saunders) I was the only Inspector present Sir and I have no knowledge of that situation. (To us) Your powers of observation aren't very good. An Inspector's uniform is very distinct.

Did you notice the incident where a man was thrown heavily out of the lower door that the Prime Minister entered?

Joyce: No.

Well the man involved spoke to an Inspector immediately after and tried to take his name.

Joyce: Are you sure he didn't slip—it was very slippery just there because tomatoes and paint had been thrown. I slipped once.

No, he was thrown to the ground. He had claimed to be exercising his democratic right to see his Minister, (laughter)

Joyce: Well I was, as I say, the only Inspector there. I knew nothing of this.

This is hearsay but a reporter for one of the dailies reported that a policeman remarked on Friday afternoon "come along tonight and you'll see some fun." Also, correct me if I'm wrong, there was a police ball on Friday night?

Saunders: Yes.

It was reported that police made the comment "We're going to get those kids up at the Varsity tomorrow." This seems to be indicative of a hostile attitude?

Saunders: That might have been said but it was just loose talk. We don't encourage that sort of thing.

One girl claims she was hit in the stomach and then in the jaw on Friday night.

Saunders: Well that sort of thing is very uncertain. It's possible that someone could be knocked around in the general melee.

Are there any regulations governing the handling of a woman at opposed to a man?

Saunders: Are four policemen—one on each limb—unreasonable?

It depends on what they're doing to the limbs.

Saunders: Have you ever tried to control a girl in this state?

No, and I'll accept your judgment of the difficulty of control, but four men onto one girl seems to be a link unnecessary, Moving on to another point now: one of the lawyers involved in defending those arrested has complained that access was denied in some cases until after the remands on Saturday morning.

Saunders: We're working under great difficulties—you might notice that the station is being renovated. It's a matter of time. We haven't got enough men to cope with such an influx quickly. I mean they can't concern themselves with every demand someone makes. It's a matter of sorting them out.

There were enough policemen to stand around insulting those arrested while they were in the cells. At least that's what has been alleged.

Saunders: No doubt, but have you considered the sort of things that those in the cells were saying to policemen?

The lawyer also claims that the condition of the cells was pretty terrible. There were eight people in one cell with one bunk. They had a bucket for toilet use which leaked. They were thus presented from sitting on the floor as it was covered with urine.

Saunders: We'd like to see the cells improved too. Not to A class accommodation but better than they are.

Some claim that they asked for blankets and were refused on the grounds that there were none left yet when they were allowed to the toilet early in the night they discovered some in a cupboard.

Joyce: These could be blankets that had been used and were to go to the laundry. We don't issue blankets that have been used.

Some of those arrested also complain that they were kept awake during the night by police offering insults. One policeman told one cell early in the morning that the All Blacks had left and seventy three protesters had been arrested.

Saunders: How many?

Seventy three. Is this a matter of discipline or do you encourage it?

Saunders: We certainly don't encourage it.

Joyce: We are required to check the cells every two hours. Much good-natured banter goes on between police and those in the cells. No one has ever complained and they certainly have nothing to lose by doing so.

A considerable number are complaining now. The lawyer also alleged that, contrary to an assurance given by the police to the Council for Civil Liberties last year, the interview room contained a two-way mirror. Aren't lawyers entitled to speak to their clients privately?

Saunders: This is completely incorrect. What we have is an observation room—early morning parades—you know the sort of thing. The police watch from one side while the duty sergeant ushers in the suspects on the other. What the Civil Liberties Council was worried about was that this room was being used by lawyers and that the police were spying on them and have them bugged. There is a microphone—it's quite obvious—but this is merely for the duty sergeant for use to give those on the other side the name of those they are watching. Because of charges of the kind the Civil Liberties Council made we are having a new interview room made. At present this observation room is occupied as an office as we are short of space.

The lawyer claims that he observed a lawyer interviewing his client in this room on Friday night.

Joyce: I can't see how that would happen—the duty sergeant wouldn't let him through . . .

Saunders: The room may have been used on Friday night since it was rather crowded.

The microphone is still there?

Saunders: Yes.

Another point, When I was at the rear of the demonstration I saw a demonstrator arrested for using the words—may I use them—"fucking cops". Less than two minutes later a Maori, not a demonstrator, belted the bonnet of a car and yelled "fuck off you stupid cunts," I heard this and immediately turned to the policemen. One nudged the other and they laughed. Why was this man not arrested?

Saunders: You may have a point here. I don't know whether what you say is true or not but this could happen. A considerable degree of discretion is involved here.

If we were able to produce signed statements which mentioned one policeman's number more than twice would you investigate?

Saunders: Yes, I would.