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British Proposals for India Thrown Out by Debating Society

Ben O'Connor: "It gives me great pleasure to move this motion and even greater pleasure to oppose Mr. Dowrick. The interim Government will supervise the making of the constitution—I do not contend that the proposals will benefit all the people. The Indians have been dependent on Britain for a long time and therefore cannot be expected to be able to govern themselves. Under the interim Government the Indians will rise to a sense of duty. They are united in that they don't want the British. History does not show that they are capable of self-government; in the 562 native states the conditions are worse than in Bengal. Under the type of Government to be Bet up they will unite to rid themselves of caste distinctions." Mr. O'Connor quoted from Laski ("This must hurt you, Ben") and "India Today" by Palme Dutt (Left Book Club,").

"India is a big country with different races—the main division is between Hindu and Moslem; but forces will rise which will sweep away these religions which are hindering progress, and then we'll have a united India."

Harold Dowrick: "Mr. O'Connor has been too kind; he has carefully avoided saying anything in favour of the motion but has said several things on our side. These proposals, brought forward by that bourgeois peer Pethick Lawrence and that aristocratic commoner Amery, are based on the existing provincial councils the assemblies of which are elected by 11% of the people. The central assembly is elected by 5%, who are the wealthy class. Outside these there would be 562 states ruled despotically by princelings who would nominate their own representatives to the assembly. This would create 562 Ulsters in India. The people, not their overlord a, should say who will represent them in the assembly. Sovereignty, however, will still remain in the hands of the people with such typically Indian names as Yeats, Jones etc. The chota-pegging pukka sahibs will still have the real power—not the Indian people.

"The proposed system perpetuates the evil of division between Hindu and Moslem, princes and the people and workers. Freedom will never be realised until they have a freely elected democratic 'system."

Mr. Hickey (seconding O'Connor): "Chairman, Ladies and Gentlemen, and Communists"—commenced with an attack on Mr. Dowrick and stated that India was the toughest proposition ever to be tackled. "It is in the interests of the Indian people that the British get out. ('Hear, hear.') The people of India will decide for themselves under the new constitution. In India you have plagues, floods ('and the English for 200 years'). The English must get out quickly. There will be one constltution-making body and one sovereign state of India—not two, as the Moslems want. It is in their interest to be united and capable of withstanding invasion (murmurs of 'Russia'). India will do this when the British get out. The commission has gone there, not for the benefit of India ('Aha!')—sorry, not for the benefit of England. . . . India came to England—or rather, England took India ('What about Mahomet?'). These proposals are for India's good."

Bruce Weir (seconding Dowrick) held up a cutting—the "Evening Post" leader of May 16, and stated that he had followed Mr. Hickey's progress point by point through this article; he congratulated Mr. Hickey on keeping the points in the correct order. Gandhi's attitude was that the proposals gave seeds for hope; the Moslems that the plan has all the weaknesses of a plan made by outsiders. "I'd like to call Mr. Attention ('Paging Mr. Attention!') . . . All Moslems are not interested in Pakistan ('Neither are we') but Dr. Jinnah with a large following says that the Moslems will fight to the last ('Hindu') for Pakistan."

Dick Collins (Neg.): "I do not think (loud cheers)—I am not of the opinion that there was ever a more clear-cut subject put up for debate than this one. We are asked whether these proposals are in the best interests of the Indian people—nearly 400 million—the majority of whom are depressed, exploited, and without franchise. These proposals do not contribute to the first essential of democracy—a quarter of the people would be done out of the vote in the prince states, and this cannot be the wish of the people—the proposals do not lead to the independence of the Indian people. What is required is liberty, freedom and humanity. It is stated that the Indian people cannot unite, that the Moslem and Hindu could not work together. Any returned man who has had any experience with the Indian army will refute this. These proposals fall short of the minimum essentials for democracy."

John McCreary: "For two centuries there has been a cloud over India—there have been red, khaki, and blue clouds. The British military have dominated India, and the major emphasls of the interim Government is that it will be chosen and the constitution discussed under the same domination. The Indian people should be allowed to choose their own Government under the United Nations charter. This is not a British problem but an Indian problem. The princeling provinces are a mass of ulcers in the stomach of India. So far as the British are concerned the Indian attitude is 'For God's sake, go.' "

Kath. Kelly (Neg.) was greeted with cries of "She's changed her coat." "Up to eight years ago Britain used India solely for exploitation ('Them's hard words'). Britain exploited India, but eight years ago ('India exploited England'). Britain owes India a debt and has to get out without shame."

Angela Cooch: "India is a most disunited country with countless religious sects and bodies ('Let's make 'em all Presbyterians'). We must educate the Indian people ('Good'). There are 400 million and only a few thousand know liberty and independence. Gandhi is the biggest bugbear to the unity of India."

Dorian Saker (Aff.) In usual parsonical tones: "It is very unwillingly I rise ('Go on you love it!'). Miss Kelly made a good point as far as dialectics go. Britain has acquired a debt to India of some millions. Britain must withdraw as rapidly as possible but leave business connections. The large illiterate masses cannot have complete liberty."

At this point Mr. Samuj, an Indian student, rose. "The most important question is whether Britain has justified the three divisions of India into Moslems, Hindus and Native States. These proposals will make the country unstable. Once India had a socialistic united state. When the Moslems came, Moslem and Hindu lived side by side. Formerly Hindu and Moslem kings governed well for Hindu and Moslem alike. It Is nonsense to say that Hindu and Moslem cannot unite. The idea of Pakistan was originated by Dr. Jinnah—these proposals split the country. The Indians are ignorant, but that is why Indian students are here. Many of these have come from wealthy homes and turned Socialist—they are prepared to make sacrifices because the Indian people need medical and other knowledge and need the types of social and other securities that we have here. It Is not with the British but with their proposals that they have a quarrel. The Moslem league was created in 1906 and brought into power by the British. It is the old story of divide and conquer. Mr. Jinnah is a little man making a lot of noise through a loudspeaker, which is the British Government. He claims 100,000 Moslem followers, but there are only 94,000 Moslems in India and Jinnah speaks only for some of those in British India. There are many in the Native states. Jinnah is responsible for some terrific lies. There is no member allowed in the proposals for the independent Moslems, and when this was suggested, Jinnah made a lot of noise and had the idea quashed.

"We speak not for Mahatma Gandhi or Azad or Jinnah, but because we want to see 400 million people united with security and food—give us assistance in building a lost empire but leave us to see if we are fit to govern ourselves."

The audience listened attentively and applauded heartily.

Harold Gretton (Neg.) quoted Lord Minto ("It's moments like these") in 1906. He had prevented the Moslems from Joining the seditious opposition—the Congress.

Jim Winchester (Neg.): "Thousands of the best workers for democracy in India are still in gaol. The British must get out. Mr. O'Connor is himself a member of an oppressed race—the same reasons for Pakistan are applicable as for the dividing of Ireland into two parts."

Harold Dowrick (summing up for the Neg.): "It is not necessary to recapitulate the negative arguments because there has not been any affirmation of the case. I must disown Miss Cooch for her naive acceptance of the idea of the inevitability of religious disunity. The apologists for the British have been that 'specious cynic Saker' and Mr. Hickey with his stories of plagues, floods, etc. The present plan does not give the Indian people the right to elect their own Government."

Ben O'Connor: ("Range 500 yards"): "The opposition have referred only to those parts of the proposals which help their case. If these proposals don't mean freedom for the Indian people then I'll join the Communist Party! (Cheers). I've got an application form here." Jim W. was Been to get a fountain pen from his pocket in preparation.

"There will be a caretaker government of civil service heads. The industrialists cannot in future starve the Indians—they will get rid of their own capitalists under a democratic government. I do not uphold British rule in India." (Cheers.) Winchesters rush in where angels fear to tread.