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Evidence of Native Chiefs

Evidence Reported From The Select Committee On The Natlve — Offenders' Bill, September 4th, 1860. — Waata Kuhutai examined

Evidence Reported From The Select Committee On The Natlve
Offenders' Bill
, September 4th, 1860.
Waata Kuhutai examined.

1.

[Mr. Richmond.] Do you think it would be well that the supply of goods to tribes hostile or disaffected to the Government should be stopped; and that the purchase of their produce by European traders should be prohibited, and that European traders inhabiting the district of such tribes should be compelled to leave the district?

Taku kupu tenei mo runga i tera. Kia kaua e purua nga taonga ki nga iwi e tutu ana; ahakoa iwi kino, ahakoa iwi pai, kia puare nga taonga ki a raua [unclear: tokorna], ki te iwi pai ki te iwi kino. Taku i whakaaro ai mo te iwi kino, he mute; ki au, ko te whia tena mona, ko te mate; naua hoki i tohe ki page 6te kino. Ko te matenga o tona tinana ka kore te taonga ki a ia. E mea ana ahau, me hoko tonu nga Pakeha i a ratou taonga, ahakoa he iwi tutu. Me waiho nga Pakeha ki roto ki nga iwi tutu: kahore e pai kia whakahokia mai nga Pakeha. Taku whakaaro nei i mohio ai au ki nga Pakeha kia waiho i roto i nga iwi tutu, e nui ana to ratou atawhai ki a ratou Pakeha. Ki taku whakaaro, kei toro te ahi.

My answer to that is, do not stop supplies to disaffected tribes. Whether bad or good tribes, let trade be open to both, to both good tribes and bad tribes. My thoughts with respect to bad tribes are—death. In my opinion, the punishment for them will be their death, as they persisted to do evil. When their bodies are dead, they will need no supplies. I think that the Pakehas should continue to sell their goods although the tribe may be disaffected. Let the Pakehas remain among the disaffected tribes; it would not be well to send back the Pakehas. My thoughts as to allowing the Pakehas to remain among disaffected tribes are because I know that they are very kind to their Pakehas. In my opinion, lest the fire should spread (or a conflagration ensue.)

2.

What tribes are you thinking of when you say it would be better that the Europeans should remain amongst them?

Ngatimaniapoto, Ngatihikairo, Ngatihinetu, Ngatiapakura, Ngatiruwharetoa, Ngatihaua, Taranaki, Ngatiruanui, Te Atiawa. Heoi ano i mohio ake ahau. Me waiho tonu nga Pakeha ki roto i era iwi.

Ngatimaniapoto, Ngatihikairo, Ngatihinetu, Ngatiapukura, Ngatiwharetoa, Ngatihaua, Taranaki, Ngatiruanui, Te Atiawa These are all that I know. Let the Pakehas remain among those tribes.

3.

Do you mean to say that you think it right that trade should go on with Native tribes in arms against the Government, and who have murdered Europeans?

Waiho kia hokohoko tonu atu.

Let trade still go on.

4.

How with regard to Ngatiruanui and Taranaki, who have committed murders?

Me waiho tonu kia hokohoko.

Let them still continue to trade.

5.

Then in what way would you propose to punish such conduct?

Ka [unclear: tohe] ratou ki te tutu, ko te utu ano ki a ia he mate. Taku hoki i whakaaro ai, ekore e mutu to ratou tutu ki tena whiu—te whakakore o nga taonga—no te mea hoki, kua ki o ratou ngakau ki te kino.

If they persist in misbehaving, their punishment will be death. I do not think that their misconduct would cease for that punishment—the stopping of supplies—because their hearts would have been filled with evil.

6.

Would not stopping trade be better than making war against hostile tribes?

Ekore e rongo. Taku whakaaro tonu, kua ki te ngakau ki te kino, mana ano te whakaaro. Ka tohe ratou ki te tutu, tona whiu ano tera.

They would not listen. My thoughts still are, that their hearts being filled with evil they would have their own thoughts. If they persist in their misconduct, that should be their punishment.

Question repeated.

A, kia whakaaro au. A, ma te wehi ki te riri kia puta ki roto i a ratou ngakau, katahi ka mutu ta ratou tutu.

Allow me to consider. If the fear of war should enter into their hearts, then their misconduct would cease.

7.

[Dr. Monro.] If tribes who are peaceful at present, knew that the Governor could stop their trade, if they took up arms against the Queen, would they be likely to do so?

Taku i whakaaro ai, ko te hunga pai e kore ratou e ahei te hapai le pu; heai ano ta ratou e whakaaro, ai ko te pai anake.

My opinion is, that well-disposed tribes could not take up arms. Their thoughts would be upon good only.

8.

[Mr. Richmond.] When part of a tribe is hostile, and part friendly (as the Ngatimaniapoto), might not goods be sent to some chief friendly to the Government, who would be able to supply them to the people who were not in arms against the Government, and to deprive the others?

Taku i whakaaro ai nei mo Ngatimaniapoto; aianei kotahi hapu nei, aianei ka wahia, hei hunga tutu tetahi hunga, hei hunga noho pai tetahi hunga. Aianei ka hoatu e te Kawana he taonga ki te [unclear: rangatira] o te hunga i noho pai, ka whakaaro atu taua rangatira ki ona whanaunga i roto i te hunga tutu, ka hoatu tetahi taonga mo ratou.

My thoughts respecting the Ngatimaniapoto are—The tribe is now in one, presently they are divided, one portion becomes disaffected, and the other remains friendly. Now, if the Governor gives goods to the chief of those who are friendly, that chief would have consideration for his relatives amongst the hostile party and would supply them with goods.

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9.

Did not the loyal tribes of Waikato suggest to Mr. Fenton that the millers (European) should be withdrawn from the turbulent tribes?

Kahore ano au i rango.

I have not heard so.

10.

Did not you suggest this yourself three years ago?

Kahore rawa.

Not at all.

11.

[Mr. Domett] Supposing war to have broken out with one tribe, would not the stoppage of their trade with other tribes help to make them sooner tired of their rebellion?

Ko te iwi kino i waenganui i nga iwi pai, me korero e nga iwi pai kia whakamutua tona tutu; ki te kore ratou e whakarongo mai ki nga korero a aua iwi pai erua nei, me whakatiki ki te taonga.

Let the bad tribes that are in the midst of good tribes be advised by the good tribes to cease their misconduct, and if they do not listen to the words of those two good tribes, then let supplies be kept from them.

12.

[Mr. Richmond.] Do you not recollect going to Whatawhata in 1857 with Fenton. Takerei, Mohi, Panapa, Te Reweti, and Fenton were talking about the people who adhered to the King, and you all said, "Recall the millers and stop the traffic"?—

Ka tika, Katahi ka inahara au. Te take i puta ai tena kupu, he tohenga no matou kia kaua he Kingi, engari me [unclear: waiho] i te [unclear: man Maori]. Na, tohe tonu ratou ki ta ratou Kingi, koia ka puta o matou whakaaro i taua takiwa, kia tangohia nga Pakeha he huri paraoa, he hanga mira ano, kia whakamutua hoki te hoatu taonga mo taua iwi tohe ki te Kingi Maori; kia kaua nga Pakeha e tahuri atu ki a ratou taonga, ki te whiti, ki te [unclear: p rao], ki te poaka, ki te riwai, ki te muka. Na taua taha Kingi aua taonga, kia kaua e paingia e nga Pakeha.

It is correct. I now remember. The cause of that word being uttered was, our insisting that there should be no King; that matters should remain according to the "mana" Maori; they insisted upon having their King; we therefore gave it as our opinion at that time, that the Pakeha millers and millwrights should, be recalled, and that the giving of goods to those who were striving for the Maori king should cease; that the Pakehas should not purchase any of their property—their wheat, flour, pigs, potatoes, or flax. It was those things that belonged to the King party, that were not to be accepted by the Pakeha.

13.

[Mr. Forsaith] At Whatawhata you expressed an opinion favourable to the proposal of stopping the trade with the Natives, who were striving about the King; but now you disapprove of stopping the supplies of Natives disaffected to the Government. What has induced you to change your opinion?

Tenei te mea i whakaaro ai au inaianei. Ka hua ahau, heoi ano te tino raruraru mo matou mo nga iwi Maori ko te Kingi anake, no te mea hoki, e [unclear: maram] ake ana ano i au taua raruraru Kingi.I whakaaro au ki reira, e kore e tupu te [unclear: kiro] i runga i taua tikanga Kingi nei; i muri iho i taua tikanga, ka tupu ko te kino. Na [unclear: konei] au i mea ai kia tukua nga taonga ki nga iwi tutu, he whakaaro noku kei tino nui rawa te kino ki to tatou motu. E mea ana au ko te kino kia mate i te pai.Heoi.

This is why I am of that opinion now. I had supposed that the King (movement) itself, was the greatest trouble that we the Maori tribes would experience, for that King difficulty was clear to me. I thought then that evil would not spring up in connexion with that King movement But since that, evil has sprung up; I therefore say, Let goods be supplied to the disaffected tribes; my thought is, lest evil should spread in our island. I think that evil should be subdued by good. Enough.

14.

[Mr. Richmond.] In cases of disobedience to magistrates (in times of peace—ordinary times) would it be well that the magistrate should be able to write to the Governor and ask him to stop goods, &c., to the people of the village protecting the offender?

E pai ana ano kia kore he taonga ki taua hapu nana i pupuru i te langara he i runga i te kupu i whakaaetia e nga kai-whakawa kia mau ki te whare-herehere; no te mea hoki, ka takahi ratou i nga ture i whakatakotoria hei pai ki runga ki nga iwi Maori, Pakeha hoki. I whakaae ai ahau kia kaua he taonga ki taua iwi, no te mea hoki, marama ake ai au, ekore e nui te raruraru k, runga ki taua ritenga, O iia, ekore e pai mo tenei takiwa enei ture; engari mo te takiwa e mate ai te tara o te ngakau; engari me waiho mo te rangimarie.

It would be well not to supply goods to the tribe who kept back the man, when the word of the magistrate was given that he should be conveyed to prison; as then they would be trampling upon the law which has been laid down for the benefit of the Maori and Pakeha races. I agree that goods should be kept from that people because it is clear to me that there would be no great difficulty about that movement. But this law would not do at that present time; it would, when the obstinacy of the heart is subdued. Better leave it for peaceful time.

15.

In time of war, would it not be well to do the same thing (i.e., stop the trade with those resisting the law) if the friendly chiefs of influence round about the disaffected district advised it to be done, and agreed to aid the Governor in stopping the trade?

Kahore; tenei te mea i whakaaro ai au—kotahi rangatira o nga hapu e noho pai ana, e whakaae ana kia purua te taonga ki nga iwi tutu; kotahi raugatira o nga iwi e noho pai ana kia page 8kaua e purua te taonga. Engari kia whakaae katoa nga rangatira o nga iwi e noho pai ana kia purua te taonga, katahi ka tika. Tena ko tenei, whakaae ana tetahi rangatira o aua iwi noho [unclear: pau] ekore ano tetahi e whakaae. Na konei i kore ai au e whakaae kia purua aua taonga.

No. This is what I think—one chief of the tribes who are well-disposed agrees that supplies be stopped to those who are disaffected. Another chief of the well-disposed tribes says, Let the supplies not be stopped; but if all the chiefs of the well-disposed tribes agree to stopping trade them it would be well. As it is, one chief of the friendly tribes consents and another does not, and therefore I do not consent to stopping the supply of goods.

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