Local Grievances.

Wiremu Katene: You say that if there is nothing more to be said in reference to the Land Act you would like to hear any personal grievances. I quite approve of the suggestion you have made, that we should consider the Act and forward you suggestions whereby our objections could be made clear on the different matters contained therein, and we think we can suggest improvements and alterations. We are quite prepared now to reply to some of your remarks, but perhaps we had better take time to consider the matter and forward you the result of our deliberations.

The Premier: You have heard my explanation. You can discuss matters, and send me the result.

Wiremu Katene: We will consider in the direction you suggest, and the result of our deliberations we will give to our representative, who will take them down to Wellington.

Wiremu Komene: This is in reference to the dog-tax. We want to know whether you sent instructions to the Magistrates to inflict punishment upon those who refused to pay the dog-tax.

The Premier: The Government never gave instructions either to the Magistrates or the Judges of the Supreme Court or of the District Court. These Magistrates and these Judges are simply machines. They carry out the law as passed by Parliament. It is Parliament that gives the instructions.

Wiremu Komene: The reason we are not paying the dog-tax is on account of sections 3 and 5 of "The Dog-tax Registration Act, 1880," and the amendment Act of 1882. The people that refused to pay the dog-tax include all the kaingas about Otawa. I will quote some portion of sections 13 and 5 of "The Dog-tax Registration Act, 1880," and the amending Act of 1882. Mr. page 36 Clendon will know these sections. Section 13 gives us power, in the event of our objecting to pay the tax, to hand the dogs over to the police to be destroyed.

The Premier; I can put you right, and I shall not expound the law wrongly. Having been one who was in Parliament when this clause was passed, I can tell you the mind of Parliament at the time. It is quite true that a policeman or a dog-tax collector can kill an unregistered dog on the road, and he may also kill an unregistered dog on other property, not being the property of the owner. But it would be a most dangerous thing if the law was to be interpreted in the way you indicate, because a dog-tax collector might come to a pa, ask for the tax, and see a dog there and shoot it. It might be a favourite dog; the owner might lose his temper, and there might be worse trouble arise. It is not the duty of the police or the dog-tax collector to go round the country, and, if he cannot get the money, to go shooting the dogs; if he did so, he would be breaking the law.

Wiremu Komene: The law has been interpreted to us by the authorities inside out, to suit themselves. If we wished to give up the dogs when the collector comes round, the collector would have to take the dog, and shoot it if we refused to pay.

The Premier: If that was the law, I would tell you so.

Wiremu Komene: It has been interpreted to me so, and the interpretation is certainly that, and it is in the Gazette.

The Premier: The Gazette is only a copy of the law. The Gazette does not give the power, nor can it make the law.

Wiremu Komene: We have been under this impression, and people have gone to gaol on account of this misinterpretation.

The Premier: The only one who can interpret the law is the Magistrate.

Wiremu Komene: Now, my prayer to you is this; My brothers and uncles are now in prison through being misled, and I now pray that you will let them out. They have served a certain time. I hope you will now let them out.

The Premier: The question now raised is asking for the clemency of the Crown. The clemency of the Crown can only be exercised on a petition being sent through the Minister of Justice to the Governor. When that petition is received, and when we find that the Natives, now they know the law, are prepared to obey it literally, that would weigh with the Governor as to whether he would grant the clemency asked for. I have heard your explanation, and we will look into the matter if you petition for the release of your friends. You cannot escape paying the dog-tax any more than the Europeans. If you have more dogs than are useful to you, destroy those which are of no use. They can only make you pay on dogs that are alive. They cannot make you pay on dead dogs. In former days your forefathers required a lot of dogs, because the dogs helped them in getting food. I do not like seeing so many dogs about the Native pas. I would rather see children. If the Europeans kept proportionately as many dogs as the Natives, I do not know what would become of the country. You are now getting sheep, and you will want good dogs to look after them. I am glad to see you are going in now for sheep. In some places in the South Island they make them pay 10s. for a dog. Here, I believe, it is only 5s.—just half. But this is a matter more for the local bodies. The dog-tax goes to help to keep our roads in repair; so if a man pays 5s. for the dog-tax he pays it for keeping the roads in repair. If he does not like to pay this tax he can get his dog destroyed, or destroy it himself, and need not pay the tax. That is a matter for the owners to settle among themselves. But we do not wish—the Government does not wish—neither do the local bodies wish—we none of us wish, in carrying out the law, to act harshly towards you. But when the law is defied, and you take up a defiant attitude, there is nothing else for it but for the Magistrate to do his duty. If you have made a mistake, and did not take the warning that was given you at first, and you now see that you made a mistake, the only chance of having the punishment mitigated is by petition to the Governor. Now, you might say, supposing the Governor was to give you a reprieve, or to mitigate the punishment, "We do not care for the Magistrate; the Governor will see us free; we will go and break the law again." If you approach the Governor in that spirit I may tell you at once your friends will not be set free; but if you approach the Governor and say, "We were misled; we now see the law is against us; we wish to obey the law," there will be no further trouble: then the Governor may see his way to mitigate the punishment. I shall therefore await the petition; but you must clearly understand the spirit in which it must come. If you take up a defiant attitude, and defy the law, I would be sorry for you to do so. The law must be supreme. It is the law of the Queen and the law of the country, and is as much for your protection as the protection of the pakeha. Without the law we should none of us be safe—neither our wives, children, or our properties. I hope you will therefore see the position, and recognise this after you have reasoned the matter over with yourselves. You will find it is really in your interest that the majesty of the law is maintained.

Wiremu Komene: I will send the petition to the Governor; but it certainly will not go upon the lines that we wish to defy the law or the Magistrate: nothing of the kind.

The Premier: I am very pleased to hear that.

Wiremu Komene; When I pointed out this section to the Magistrate it was exactly as you interpreted it—it was only for the dogs straying about. The petition will go from Kaikohe, Te Kinga, and Otawa.

page 37

Te Waru: I was going to have a long talk over the Native Land Purchase and Acquisition Act. Now, seeing that the whole thing is made plain to us, there is nothing for me to do but submit amendments to you when writing. All these people assembled here to-day wish it to be left under section 14, and not to go any further. I wish this law not to allude to any pas or cultivations. I do not wish the latter part of the section to come in—where the Governor is allowed to adjudicate. Section 11—In case the land is leased, all the expenses shall be defrayed by the owners: This presses very heavily on the Natives. One of the Native grievances is that they are not able to settle their own people on their own land. The rates and taxes are so heavy on the lands. This is one of the oppressions—the surveys, and of the expenses put upon the land when it is transferred. The stamp duties and succession duties really go to prevent Europeans taking up land from the Natives. This should all be revised, and the people placed on their own lands. Supposing they were to sell all their lands, where is the portion left for them? We wish that all those duties should be taken off, that we may be able to sell our land to the pakeha. Now I come to the Eating Act. I do not think the Government have any great love or affection for the Natives, because they are putting rates on them. They will never be able to pay the rates—the land must go to pay the rates. I quite agree with you when you remark that the land is the mother of the people. Why should not a piece of land be taken for another? The Act says the land must be within five miles of a road. Why should they be rated when they have no communication with the roads? I am just pointing these facts out to you. These are the oppressions, and we feel them very much. I will give you an instance. Some people have no roads to their places at all—they simply have a canoe; and why should these people be taxed when they do not use the roads?

The Premier: Perhaps I might save all further speakers talking on the question raised by my friend here to-day. It was just now mentioned by him in his speech that he did not think the Government had any love for the Natives, because they passed a law making them pay rates. Then we have no love for the Europeans, because they have had to pay rates for many years, whether they used a road or not. But I think we show half as much love again for the Natives as for the pakeha, because we only make the Natives pay one-half; so our hearts are one-half warmer to the Natives than to the Europeans. We make the Europeans pay for all their land—it does not matter whether there is a road or not; but we only ask the Natives to pay for such land as is within five miles of a main road. The roads are there just as much for the Natives as for the Europeans. I never found the Natives going in the bush when there was a road to travel on. I never saw the Natives swimming a river so long as there was a bridge for them to go across; and the roads and the bridges are a public convenience. If they were to put a toll-gate on these roads, and make every one pay to go through, the Natives would have to pay much more in rates. I have said—and that is the whole trouble—I am sorry the Natives have not more money to enable them to pay their rates; but they keep the land locked up. They will not make any money out of it themselves, and will not let any one else. They are therefore rich and yet poor. The amount they are called upon to pay is not much if they had the means to pay. The Parliament very graciously refused to put rates on the Natives the same as on the Europeans, because we recognise that certain changes must take place before we put the whole amount of the rates upon them; and if they will take advantage of the law passed last session, and help the Government so that they can utilise the lands the same as the Europeans, they will find the rates will not oppress them. If you have any suggestions to make in reference to this question of the rates, the same as you are going to do in connection with the Land Act, reduce them to writing. It is no use three or four getting up and speaking. Reduce what you have got to say to writing, and send it to Wellington. Your late member will tell you that on the Native Committee the Government agreed to let you off with only paying half-rates; and we hope to see you improve your lands. Keep as much as you think will be wanted for yourselves and children, but do not think of keeping the country in an unproductive condition; that is what everybody complains of. The Government is the strong buffer between you and the power behind. Knowing this to be the case, that is why I want to speak to you face to face, so as to remove these defects, and get you in a better position to do good for yourselves and children. As regards the question you mention, as to the pakehas buying direct from the Maoris themselves, I might just as well let you jump into the ocean and let the sharks devour you, because the pakeha land-shark has been a curse, and would be a curse again. We will not let you in amongst the sharks, you are too good for that; but we do say you shall get a fair value for your land, and in leasing it you shall be protected. The greatest trouble the Parliament has had has been to protect you against these land-sharks. The Native who lately spoke might be able to make a good bargain, and be able to protect himself; but he would not be able to say the same of every Native in this room. What about these children, who have as much right to the land as he has? What about those men who cannot speak English, and do not know anything about the laws, and have never been brought into contact with Europeans? They would not be able to do business the same as he. The first thing that would happen when you let a piece of land by lease would be a dispute about your boundaries, because you cannot let a piece of land unless you know what the boundary is. The next thing page 38 would be a squabble about fencing the boundary. Then the lessee would not pay the rent. Then, the next thing, all the improvements belong to him, and by-and-by he takes the land from you, and you get very little money—probably he gets you into his debt; he is the landlord, and he turns you out. Then, when the quarrel becomes so serious, you come to Parliament for a Validation Act. One half of this book is Acts of Parliament—validating Acts between the Natives and the Europeans; and nearly always we find the Natives have been wronged. The Europeans and the pakeha-Maori land-sharks are all round you, and if we were to do what you ask—to give you free trade with your land with the pakeha-Maori and land-shark—they would sweep down upon you as the hawk does upon the little bird. We are not going to let you drop into the talons of the hawk—we are not going to let you go into the maws of the sharks; but it is in the interests of yourselves that any dealings in your lands should be under the same law as that under which we deal with Crown lands, so that they shall be submitted to public auction; that the light of day shall be on the transaction, so that there will be none of these illegitimate transactions. I have known Natives like you who have known our laws. They have received a large sum of money, and have got other Natives to agree to a lease who did not know what they were doing. That has been a Native who knows business and knows our language. I have known these people pay men to do wrong to their friends. I hope I have now convinced you that it is not right to the Native race to allow them to be the victims of designing persons. Of course, I am quite willing to receive from you any communications suggesting an improvement upon the Act as it now stands, but it is no use sending suggestions down asking the Government to agree to free trade in Native lands and to hand you over to the land-sharks. We intend to remain true to your forefathers. They saw the ills that would happen to you if you were left in the hands of designing persons, and hence by the Treaty of Waitangi you must deal with your lands only through the Government. If we were to agree to what you propose it would be almost sufficient to make the voice of your forefathers issue from the grave and cry, "Shame! shame! shame! We signed the solemn Treaty of Waitangi with you that our people should be protected for all time against themselves. Why have you broken the treaty, and handed over our people to the pakeha-Maori and the wrongdoer?"

Te Waru: The point rests more in respect to us leasing under the law. Before a European tenant can take possession of a lease from the Natives of any piece of land he has to pay stamp duty on the capitalised value for the term of that lease. This would press very heavily upon them, and depreciate the value of the land. I ask that we should be allowed solely to lease—that is to say, no one else should have the leasing but ourselves. It is not a question of who should lease, but the question is, when we do lease let the law be light.

The Premier; There is no such expense if the lease is done under this Act.

Te Waru: As I read it, all expenses incurred on this land will be paid when the lease is taken.

The Premier; There is no such thing as stamp duty under the present Act. Under the original Act the expenses were, I grant, heavy. If a road is constructed through the land it improves its letting-value. You will find under this Board, when it fixes the value of the land, additional value is given by having the road, and hence you will have the same benefit as the Europeans. I am glad I came to-day, because you do not understand the law.

Te Waru: The Europeans have the roads right up to their doors. The Natives have no roads at all, and why should they pay half-rates?

The Premier: It is no use speaking against the fact. The Natives have just as much use of the roads as the Europeans. Their land is only taxed if within five miles of the road.

Te Waru: There is no land further away than five miles—only land that has not gone through the Court.

The Premier: I may tell the people here that your knowledge is very limited. You cannot speak for all parts of the North Island, because we have a map showing what land is rateable, and if you say the land is not within five miles of a road, and has not gone through the Court, you do not know anything about it.

Re te Tai: We have heard all you have had to say to-day, and you have said we should give our grievances to you. I rest on that one saying of yours to-day—telling us that we should meet and confer together, and that we should have one petition and send it to the Government. On that head I now make a prayer to the Premier and the Hon. Mr. Carroll. It is that they will agree to sanction a Bill that will be framed by the Natives of this Island. Any Bill or Bills that the Maoris may get up will be placed before you in the next Parliament. I ask you now whether you will sanction any Bill got up by us and the big meeting when they are all unanimous?

The Premier; When you close the proceedings I am quite prepared to give you a very complete reply, and my reply is, as I told you, the Parliament of New Zealand is as open to you as it is to me. If you have a Bill drafted, and you have one of yourselves, or any European member, to introduce that Bill, or is desirous to do so, the power of the Parliament is there, and it can be introduced. The Parliament receives all Bills. They are moved for the first time to be introduced, so long as they are respectfully worded; then they are read, or refused to be read, a second time; but I have never yet known or heard of a Bill being refused to be introduced that was at all page 39 reasonable. I have no doubt the Bill would be discussed. If it was not considered to the advantage of the colony to pass it it would be rejected. If it was against the Constitution, or if it was unconstitutional in its provisions, it would be thrown out. If it was against the interest of the two races, then it would be thrown out. If it was an improvement upon the existing laws, and the majority in Parliament considered it was a wise thing to pass it, why, then it would pass. You must be prepared to abide by the decision of the majority. In that spirit I understand from the speaker a move will be made in this direction, if in your Bill you ask to have a Parliament of your own—to ignore the present Parliament and to set aside the authority of the Queen—I tell you now at once it would not be allowed to be introduced. There can only be one Parliament and one authority in this country, and that is the authority of Her Most Gracious Majesty Queen Victoria. Your forefathers ceded this, it was in your interests, and it is in the interest of us all to maintain that position. I shall be very pleased myself to see in what way you will shape the proposed legislation. It will be a very concise way of ascertaining your views upon the questions that affect you; but, as I have told you, Parliament is open to you, and it is to Parliament you must look for redress. If Parliament does not see its way to agree to what you propose, as loyal subjects of the Queen and as colonists you must submit with good taste, and believe it is all done for the best. My last words to you now are, and my first words to-day were, Look to Parliament, and I feel sure Parliament will do what is right.

Here the Natives proposed to adjourn for tea, but the Premier said the matters they were engaged upon were more important than tea. When a jury is doing the business of a country the authorities lock them up until they have finished their business. They had just arrived at a very important stage in the proceedings; their thoughts were working well—it would be a pity to disturb their thoughts by loading their stomachs.

Hone Heke: In trying to cut everything as short as possible, after they have said everything in respect to the Act passed last session, there is a suggestion for the Natives to put down any such suggestion they see fit on paper and send it to Wellington. I think before concluding with the different Acts referred to to-day, and proceeding to grievances with reference to the surplus-land question, is not the mind of the Natives at the present time, and it would be better for them to quote the cases in view and then follow with other matters. That would be the shortest way to dispose of everything for the present.

The Premier: They have all made reference to their grievances in respect to some surplus land. It would be best for them to name all the different blocks in which they have been wronged, and it would only be a duty for the Government, or myself as representing the Government, to take up the information given here to-day to Wellington and place it before the Government there for their consideration, and we may find out there whether it is worth while setting up a Court of inquiry into these different blocks. The proper course to pursue is to take a typical case and send it on to Wellington. I might forget what has been said to me to-day, but if they reduce their grievances respecting the particular blocks to writing it then becomes a matter of record, and the Government could look into it and decide accordingly.

Hone Peti: I have a request to make to the Premier in reference to the subject I am about to submit to him. I do not wish it to be treated in the same manner as one would treat any ordinary subject, as when meeting one along the road—a mere exchange of words; but I would like the history of this case inquired into at the present time. The case I am about to refer to is that of the Puketotara Block, about which I visited Wellington and presented a petition, and I discussed the matter with members outside the House. While there I also asked that any decision on my petition might be withheld until a member of the Ministry should have an opportunity of visiting the locality and gaining information in connection with the land. The Hon. the Minister of Lands appeared at Waimate, and we assembled in his presence and discussed this subject. After he had heard what we had to say, he stated that on his return to Wellington he would meet his colleagues in Cabinet and give the matter his attention. He was to inform me of the decision arrived at by his Government, but from that time to this no word has reached me. I explained all the particulars and matters in detail which constituted this subject. If the Premier would like me to give him a sketch of the history of this case now I will do so.

The Premier: Has it already been recorded? If it is already in the petition it is no use my worrying you by letting you give me the details. I shall see whether it is in the petition, and, if so, I will inquire why the matter has not been attended to.

Hone Peti: I do not know whether all the particulars were taken down at that interview, but I know that the Commissioner of Crown Lands was present. Whether it was Mr. Mueller I cannot say at present, and I cannot say whether every particular was noted at that time. The petition was presented to Parliament. The land is known by the name of Puketotara. It was formerly sold to the early settlers who visited this colony. It was sold by people other than the owners. We—that is to say, our old people and our forefathers, who were the residential people located on the land—did not sell it. When they heard of the sale perpetrated by another hapu they took steps to resent it, but they found that those who had sold the land had decamped with the purchase-money of the European, and the European would not give up the land, although page 40 it had been sold by persons that had no right to sell. They pacified some of our people by bribing them and by giving them presents, but that did not satisfy the whole of the people, and that land remained a subject of dispute up to the year 1850. The people who owned the land had been living all this time on it and cultivating it. In that year we, who had gone up with our own people, went and gave notice to the European of our objecting to the European title to the laud vesting in him, and requested him to give up the land, which had been wrongly sold. We went every year for six years to protest. At last he agreed to give a portion of the land sold by our people to him in lieu of that which had been wrongly sold by the people I have mentioned. This was agreed upon, and, together with ourselves, ho went on to the land and marked off the portion to be given back to us. After that certain surveys were prosecuted in this part of the Island. I believe they were the first surveys ever done in the colony. William Clarke was the name of the surveyor. When the land-surveying, as I have mentioned, started in this district he was the surveyor; and these surveys were instigated by the missionaries, and as the survey was made identical with the lines agreed upon, it marked off the piece to be returned to us. A year after this we undertook the survey of this portion which we were to have, and completed it, and submitted the land to the Native Land Court, the presiding Judge of which was Mr. Maning. The investigation proceeded before Judge Maning, and the whole case was heard throughout. Judgment was suspended, and during this suspension Mr. Kemp came forward and objected. He objected to the survey-line encroaching upon his piece, and asked that it should be adjusted. Mr. Kemp said his son would go and set the boundary-line right, and afterwards would proceed with the case. Mr. Maning agreed to that; and, in consequence of a dispute amongst ourselves that arose about that time, we failed to go and set the survey-line right, and we allowed the matter to stand over in that position; but we leased the land, and it was under lease by us up to the years 1889 and 1890; and when Mr. Smith, Chief Judge of the Native Land Court, came to Rawene I asked him to explain the position of that land, but he said to me, "Wait until I return to Auckland, and I will look up the particulars in the department, and let you know the position of it." The Government had made a claim to the land about this time. When the Chief Judge returned to Auckland he wrote to us, and informed us that he had looked the matter up, and attached to his letter a memorandum written by Judge Heale. He said the land did not belong to the Government. Now, at that time Mr. Heale was Surveyor-General of the colony. He was afterwards appointed Judge of the Native Laud Court; and it was when he was head of the Survey Department, I presume, that he wrote that minute in respect to the laud not belonging to the Government. After this we applied for the Court to sit, and decide. Judge Puckey proceeded to inquire into the title of the land. On the second day of the investigation by the Court a reply was sent by the Government to say it was Crown land, and could not be dealt with. The Court had gone so far as to accept the lease of the owners, and had made a special division of the land between the owners, when this wire came from the Government asking what jurisdiction the Court had to deal with it. That wire was replied to by Judge Puckey, and subsequently a wire came from the Government saying the proceedings should be delayed while inquiries were made by the Government. In consequence of this wire from the Government judgment was suspended, and we have waited for some information from the Government as to the result of their inquiries. Nothing followed; nothing was done. I then sent a letter to the Government asking them to inquire into the matter; the usual reply was given—that they did not see fit to consider the matter, and there was nothing done. Then I drew up a petition, as already referred to, and submitted it to Parliament. This is a very strong case, and the grounds which support it are stronger than the generality of such cases under the circumstances. Much land has gone from us. We have lived on that land, we have always lived on it and cultivated it down to the time we sent in our petition. This, Premier, is the position of this case. I have waited for some word from the Hon. the Minister of Lands; I have received none. All through the time of last Parliament no word has come to me. If he is still in power I have received nothing by way of information. That was during the time of the last Government. Now that the Premier is here I respectfully pray that he will take this matter into his consideration—now a new Government is formed, and the Premier is here in person, and he has already intimated that he will study it carefully and give attention to our grievances. I may add also that when the Government were cutting up land in this district for settlement purposes I wrote to the Government asking them to forbear selling any land identical with this block, until this question has been settled. I have received no word, and they have not stopped their proceedings. When the Native Land Laws Commission sat here, and Mr. Rees was Chairman, a selector was looking for a portion of land whereon to settle. I saw that Commissioner and sent word to the Government to stop the European selector, but this matter was not gone into. The Commissioner took no steps in the matter. All this time there have been European selectors selecting portions for themselves. On each occasion we have asked that they should hold aloof until these grievances of ours had been adjusted. I want you, the Premier, to give attention to this. I wish to describe to you how the old sales were carried on in the old days. The European purchasers came round and found the people of the settlement away on their business, and they bought from those who were at the settlement, while part of the owners page 41 were away. Thus were these lands acquired. I think it is only right in the case of this surplus land that the Natives and their descendants should be allowed to participate in them. I want you, as head of this Government, to give full consideration to the claims of the Natives. The Government are losing nothing by it—they never paid for it; it is a limitation of area and surplus, and all such surplus, I think, should go back to the Natives. This is the full burden of my prayer. This portion of land should be given back to the Natives, they having previously sold it to him in lieu of land which had been wrongfully sold to him.

The Premier: I have listened patiently to all you have had to say. What is the name of the block? What is the area of the land involved?

Hone Peti: The Puketotara. The area is 4,000 acres.

The Premier; This is the first I have heard of it, and I can say no more than this: that I will look into the papers and see how the matter stands. At any rate, you shall receive a reply. T do not think it is right to keep matters in suspense and doubt. The sooner it is settled one way or the other the better. In regard to the question of surplus land, I know it is a very large question and requires very careful handling. I will also go into that matter, and discuss it with the Minister of Lands. The circumstances are so altered now, owing to the time that has elapsed, that it is difficult to deal with, and almost impossible to go back to it. What applies more particularly to the first case gives great force to what I said to-day—this constant holding over of titles. If the titles had been ascertained years ago this trouble could never have taken place, and the longer this question is left over the more difficult it is to deal with—I mean the question of ascertaining the titles to land. Hence what I urge upon the Natives and Europeans, and all concerned, is that the sooner we ascertain the titles to all the land, the sooner we shall be able to do justice to all parties. You may rest assured I will go into the matter most carefully, because I desire to do what is just. You have not told me what the result of your petition to Parliament was.

Hone Peti: I could not tell you what the result of that petition was, but when I left Wellington the intention was to refer the matter in the usual way for inquiry.

The Premier: Who was the member representing the district when you presented it?

Hone Peti: The first year Te Kapa represented us in Parliament. I forwarded that petition to Parliament through Hone Taipua, and when I was in Wellington they both told me they had presented the petition, but the Committee had not gone into it. While I was there, I may mention that I told them not to hurry on the investigation of the petition, so as to allow me time to interview the Minister of Lands. I returned at this stage to my own home and waited the arrival of the Minister of Lands.

The Premier: I will ascertain whether the Committee inquired into the matter, and whether the petition still remains to be dealt with. It might require renewing. If presented the session before last it would not require renewing. I will inquire into the matter, and you shall hear from me some little time after I return to Wellington.

Hone Peti: I am satisfied. I make this last suggestion. It is for you to consider whether any importance can be attached to it. It is an important question—whether the Government see their way clear to appoint some tribunal to investigate the matter, and set it at rest. I do not mean that the Government should appoint any commission to investigate these matters and let the cost fall upon us. Possibly the Government may be able to appoint some one with authority to go into the question on both sides. It is futile to approach Parliament by way of petition. Nothing comes of it. I simply throw this out as a suggestion.

The Premier: All will depend upon the investigation. There are other interests in other blocks similarly situated; you have simply indicated this as a typical case. You had better send down a list of subjects to me at Wellington.

Raniera: I understand now that we have arrived at the end of our business, and that you are going to have something to eat, and proceed on your journey. I am very pleased that the result of our talk has been the opening up of a path by which we can send our communications in connection with this matter to you. I must express my pleasure at the invitation given us to forward our complaints and grievances to the place where, you say, they should be sent, and that such will receive your careful consideration. You also mentioned that former Governments have not acted in the manner you have done—by coming to visit us, enduring hardships, and taking the trouble to listen to our complaints. I am further pleased at the good advice you have tendered to us to-day, in which you instanced the bundle of sticks, which, when bound together, could not be broken, but, when taken individually, stick by stick, were easily broken. Your remarks in that direction have given me the fullest satisfaction, and your assent also to the lines suggested by We Papa with reference to a general meeting of the Natives, at which they might formulate a Bill to submit to the Government. That general meeting for that purpose will be akin to the advice you gave us about the bundle of sticks. Such a Bill will proceed from an organized body. My approval of your utterances to-day is further strengthened by your reminding us that the Parliament of this colony is approachable by the two races of this colony; and I hail with satisfaction your announcement that any step we may take in the direction of formulating a measure comprising our ideas on the subject of legislation—that is, if we send such a measure page 42 down to the Parliament of the colony—will be carefully scanned and scrutinised by all sides of the House; and, if any good can result therefrom, you will assist in framing and making an accomplished fact an Act that will be beneficial to the Native races. You will have earned the goodwill, good feeling, and entire approval of the Native people. There is a meeting already fixed to which all the representatives of the Maori people of both Islands are invited to attend. That meeting will be held at Gisborne on the 12th April, and at that meeting will take place what has been mentioned already—namely, a Bill will be drawn up by the Native people. With reference to what you have discussed with us to-day, referring to the Acts, it is settled that the people here, after your departure, will consider all the various points brought out during the korero, and they will communicate with you further on. At the same time these matters that have been brought forward by Peti, and all such matters, will be forwarded on to you. The Bill that the Native people intend to frame will be submitted to Parliament through the hand of their Native representative. I have come to the end of my speech; and I will conclude by wishing long life to yourself and your colleague for having met us here to-day.

The Premier: Men, women, and children of the Native race, my last words to you to-night are these: As I started to-day with a friendly greeting, I now wish you a hearty good-bye. I have counselled you as a friend. I have indicated to you on What lines legislation would be in your interest, and if you keep to these lines and are reasonable in your proposals there is all the better chance of making such amendments in the law as may be considered necessary in the interests of both races. Because I am in this position: I know the minds of the Europeans just as you know the minds of the Native race. Just as, if you attempt when the river is in flood to put a barrier across it, the waters will wash the barrier away, so if you make unreasonable proposals they will be washed away. I therefore counsel you to think well of the words I have spoken to you to-day. I have indicated to you, first, that we desire to preserve the race. Secondly, I have told you the present condition of affairs can no longer continue. Thirdly, it is necessary for the protection of the race that you should be defended against the pakeha-Maori land-sharks, and that evils are bound to arise if there is free trade in Native lands. And, lastly, I tell you that if (as we have in the North of Auckland) large tracts of country remaining with the titles unascertained, complications become so great that we do not know who owns the land, and every day this is continued is so much to your injury. But there is something in what you have said to-day in regard to the expense incurred. And when I come to this subject, and meet my colleague and discuss the question with him, and we both agree that these expenses should be lessened (and the cheaper we can make them the better), I would, with a view to lessening the costs, bring the Court and the Judges to a place like this, where there are no publichouses and no evils you might fall into. I would bring the Courts to the doors of the owners, and would, as far as possible, keep the pakeha-Maoris from being with you when you are discussing the question of your land. It would be just as well that you should keep clear of the lawyers. I would again remind you of the bundle of sticks. What has caused you some expense and lost you more land than enough is due to your quarrelling amongst yourselves. Not only that, but when the question of titles comes up your neighbour may want a rehearing of the Court, and all the time your land is going from you. My heart has bled when seeing the Natives dragged into the towns to rehear complaints. They have been there week after week and month after month, while all their substance has been vanishing. I have known them in the Courts kissing that good book the Bible, and at the same time while kissing with their lips they have told lies and perjured themselves. I would sooner see a slow disease over the land than see what I have seen in respect of their land when going through the Courts—the men there drinking, quarrelling, fighting among themselves, and all of the one race. Their wives and daughters keep in the towns, acquire bad habits, and in some cases are defiled. After meeting each other, and keeping as I told you to-day, adjusting matters as between friends, if there is a little dispute, it is better to to come and talk it over, and come to a mutual agreement, than to be impoverished, and to find your lands going away to those who prey upon you. I have to-day kept my word. I am a man that does not promise much, but any promise made I always perform. I told you to-day that I would open my mind to you, and speak plainly to you, and I think you will agree with me I have kept my word. On the other hand, I am very pleased you have opened your minds to me, and that we have discussed matters reasonably, and I think mutual good will result from my having paid you a visit. I have many more places to go to and many more Natives to see, hence the necessity for my leaving you much earlier than I wished. I would have liked to have stopped with you longer and enjoyed your hospitality, but, though distance may separate our bodies, our minds, I hope, will be working in the same direction—namely, the improvement of the condition of the Native race in this country—that they may live in peace, contentment, and prosperity side by side with their friends the pakeha; that in so living they may improve their position; that they may advance with the times, and by that advancement be taught that it is in their interest to set a good example. I Would like to see the sons of the Native race hold their position in the Civil Service of the colony. I would like to see them holding their position in connection with the commerce of the colony. I have no hesitation whatsoever in saying that page 43 mentally, physically, and with cultivation they are capable of holding the highest positions in the land. But you cannot do that—you cannot hope for your sons doing this if things continue the way they are, and the way they have been drifting the last few years. You must see first of all that they have the creature comforts of life. It is no use living in a half European and half Native state, as you now live. It is impossible for you to expect the physical development that it is necessary for you to have. There must be something also for you to look forward to. When you have no hope, and nothing definite to do, that is bound to bring you to evil ways. I have heard it said that all the young men care about is riding horses, drinking waipiro, and playing billiards. There may only be a few, and it is not their wish to do what is wrong. But, I ask, what causes them to do this? It is because they have no occupation—nothing to do. They do not go on the land. Even their fathers do not know whether the land belongs to them or not. They do not go chopping down the bush and putting up fences, because they do not know who they would be doing it for; hence, I am sure that if this state of things was removed there would be more cultivation, and you would find greater prosperity among the Natives. Then, as regards the walks amongst the better paths of life, they must have the necessary education; without it they would simply hold inferior positions. I would like to see schools—the very best possible—maintained in the Native districts. I would like to see those sons of the Natives who have a natural gift above their fellows securing scholarships, and going to our colleges and getting a superior education. Then there is no doubt we should find them filling the most advanced positions in the colonies. All this is possible if you follow the advice I have given you. Follow the advice of a friend who has come among you to-day to try and do you good. I shall redeem my promise. And here I tell you, I shall take your representative, Hone Heke—a young man of superior education, desirous of doing you good—I shall take him by the hand; I shall render him all the assistance I possibly can; and when he is away from you in Parliament and helping to pass laws in the interest of Europeans and Natives, do not have people behind his back doing him an injury, but be satisfied with what he is doing. Do not when he is in Parliament ask him to do what is unreasonable, and, if he attempts to do well, hold him up to ridicule, because if you do it will be a reflection upon him just as much as upon you. Remember that he is one of the sticks, and it is just as well to keep all the sticks together. With the Europeans, when their member goes to Parliament they only ask him to do what is reasonable; they keep strengthening his hands and helping him, and that strengthens his position when in Parliament at Wellington. Then when the European comes back from Parliament he calls meetings of those he represents, gives explanations, and then they decide whether he has been acting as a faithful servant or not, I say to you, follow the same plan; when Hone comes back from the House of Korero, get his explanation, and if he serves you faithfully, say "Go forward, we have every confidence in you." It is only after explanation that you are in a fair position to judge. Now, we may differ, as we have differed to-day, in opinion, but we are both striving to do what is right in the long run. Generally speaking the majority is right; I have always found that the case since I have had anything to do with public life. I wish you good-bye, and leave you with a friendly greeting.

An excellent tea was provided, and while this was being partaken of a party of young men sang a number of part songs, already made familiar to us by the Fisk Jubilee Singers. The way the different parts were taken would have been a credit to many Europeans. The last feature, but not the least, was the capital way in which some of the children sang. At 9 p.m. the Natives took leave of their guests, and the party started for Rawene amidst much shaking of hands and cheering. The Natives seemed quite delighted at the result of the meeting. Rawene was reached at midnight, and on the following morning a steamer took the party to the Heads, where the Premier spent a couple of pleasant hours with Mr. Webster. This gentleman's hospitality is proverbial, and his fund of information in connection with the early history of Hokianga is practically inexhaustible—he is a walking encyclopedia. At 3 p.m. horses were provided and the journey resumed. On arrival at Waimamaku, the Native School Committee, with the schoolmaster, met the Premier, and invited him to visit the school. This school was in excellent order, and reflects great credit on the local dominie, who seems to be untiring in his efforts to make the Natives understand the incalculable benefit to be derived from having a good education.

In opening the proceedings, Mr. Iraia Toi (Chairman of the School Committee) said,—Our children are the cause of great consideration to us. We are sad in regard to the future. We heard the Premier express himself yesterday to the effect that his love for the Native people was strong, and that he would rather see a number of children about the Native settlement than dogs. We have for the last three years aspired to have a college. We have built up within our minds the hope that one would be erected. We have indicated this desire of ours to the Inspectors. What fathered this desire within us was the fact that great grief happened to us on account of our sending our children a long distance—to Te Aute College—and they there met with many ailments resulting in death. The result has been that it has prevented us sending our children to that College, and this feeling has permeated through the whole community and the various School Committees, and that has strengthened us in our earnest desire that a college should be established here, and our feeling on the matter has been made known in strong and vigorous terms to the page 44 different School Committees throughout this district. That is all I have to say or place before you.

The Rev. Wiki te Paa: The Premier will reply in due course to what we lay before him. I wish on this occasion to indorse what has fallen from the Chairman of the School Committee. It is true that it is the feeling of the Committee, under the circumstances, that the school should be converted into a college for the children of the districts north of Auckland. The last speaker has given you reasons which provide a fair justification for our request. I need not follow on the same ground. You were kind enough to say that you would deplore the decrease of the Native race. It is on that particular ground that the Natives will not send their children to the higher schools—to the colleges which are a distance away from them—because it has resulted in the death of so many of them, and it is apt to give rise to a feeling of prejudice entertained by the Native parents in regard to sending their children to any school; but they have the hope that, in taking advantage of the education which is afforded to them, their children should reach the higher stages in education. They are naturally not satisfied with the ordinary education which is meted out, and, as a part of their hopes and aspirations, as has been told you, their children have been sent to a distant college, and many of them have never returned. It tends to destroy the enthusiasm which should and has existed in the Native mind—namely, to have their children cultured. I think it is pure waste of money if the children are limited to education in the primary schools—when they are afraid to allow their children to go a step beyond. This is a subject we have deliberated over, and our deliberations have been submitted to all the other tribes of the Ngapuhi. The other people have indorsed our conclusions on this matter. At the present time there are four such children who have passed the Fourth Standard. There will be others of other schools in different parts who have done likewise. Is it not hard not to be able to go a step beyond this for their advancement? That is all I have to say, except to express the hope that the Premier will be blessed with a long life for his visit to us on this occasion.

Hapakuku Moetara (chief of the district): I am very pleased indeed at the Premier and his colleague having visited this school, and I trust the Premier will see fit to support our desire and establish a higher school for the northern part of this Island. I have two children in this school who have passed the fourth standard, but for the reasons already stated I cannot send them to the other schools south. If you can see your way to devise some method by which our hopes and desires in regard to our children can be realised in the direction we want, we trust you will give countenance to it, or offer us some suggestion by which we can achieve our object. I am imbued with a very strong desire indeed that our children should benefit by education; that they shall be in a position to secure all the advantages derived by the Europeans through education; that they will master the higher walks in life, and secure a position of a superior standard which is enjoyed by the children of the European race. It is a matter of great concern to me to feel that my children have successfully advanced in this school to be in the Fourth Standard, and yet on account of my natural instincts in regard to their welfare I cannot send them to Te Aute College or St. Stephen's. That is the position, that is the feeling of us all—that our children wish to advance, and wish to progress; wish to learn all that is to be learned by the European children. We have already procured band instruments for them. That is all I have to say. The master of this school will entertain you after we have dealt with this matter. I must express pleasure at having seen you to-day, and I only hope that what we have laid before you to-day will bear fruit.

The Premier: I desire to express to you my very great pleasure at meeting you. The pleasure is all the greater because you have broached a subject which I have given a great deal of consideration to, and you are going in the right direction in the interest of your race. I did say, and I again repeat, that it would be much better for the Native race if they would have less dogs and pay greater attention to their offspring, their children. The settlement here reflects great credit upon you, for I see, compared with the number of parents, a very great proportion of children; and I feel sure—and I am only stating what, if returns were carefully compiled, would be proved—that by sending children to school you prolong their lives. You promote cleanliness, improve their moral and social well-being, and give them an opportunity of holding positions which, if uneducated, it would be impossible for them to hold. There is no doubt whatever that, as the world progresses, and as we in this colony are likewise progressing, the uneducated will be the hewers of wood and drawers of water. This applies to the Europeans just as much as it does to the Natives; and if the parents do not give their children education, then these children, when they arrive at maturity, will say that those parents did not do their duty to them as parents. Now, proportionately, we do not find the Native race represented either in the professions, the Civil Service, or the better class of trades in the colony. The cause of this is not far to seek. They are as you are here in this locality. Parents in other parts I have travelled in are absolutely indifferent as regards the education of their children; and the most painful thing that has happened to me during my trip was at Hikonui, up the Waikato, where they told me they did not want schools, and the land that they had given for school purposes they wanted the Government to give back to them. I drew from it a comparison. I compared even your forefathers, when the Europeans first came amongst them—I drew a comparison between the Europeans and the Natives—and they, your forefathers, knew very page 45 little about the outer world; but one of the things they stipulated for was that the Government would see to the education of their children. Now, it was said of them that they were barbarians; but when we hear that remark it shows they took an interest in their race; and I say they were much more enlightened than those Natives up the Waikato who did not want schools for their children; and if there is anything above all others that I think should be fully recognised and full effect given thereto, it is the bond that was made as regards the education of the children of the Native race; and, so long as I have anything to do with guiding the destinies of this country, I shall prove my love for the Native race by giving every encouragement to them, and foster schools as much as we can compatibly with the revenue at our disposal. It cannot be said that the Native race is incapable of cultivation, because I have seen Native youths and men holding the very best positions. Now, as regards primary and secondary education, I do not think that it is wise that we should, have too many seeking to have the secondary education and filling the highest professions, for, as a rule, you will find the professions are now more than filled sufficiently for the interest of the professions and those engaged therein; in fact, there are too many lawyers, too many doctors, and too many engaged in clerical work—or men who have had superior education fitting them for these positions. I find now that they are absolutely in a deplorable condition in the colony. If I wanted to-morrow a clerk at £2 per week in the City of Wellington, and called for applications, I would have from twe to three hundred applicants, and any amount of these same men would be men who had received a collegiate education. If I wanted a man for the position of tradesman, or an artisan for the better class of trade, I should find that I could get very few, and those I did get I should have to pay £3 per week to. New, if I wanted some young man to take charge of a farm, and that man was required to understand chemistry as applied to agriculture, and to have a knowledge of geology, I should find very few in the colony; in other words, if I asked for young men to fill the better positions, much more permanent and better paid than clerical work, or even the professions, I could not get them. This is a mistake that has been made; there are too many of the one class, and not enough of the other. The parents should always consider this—namely, the great drag these youths are upon their parents, not while they are at college, but when they leave it. They want to get something, and the parents take perhaps four or five years before they can do so. In the meantime they have to clothe them well, keep them in a first-class position, compatible with the professions they are eager to enter, and in many cases the parents are not in a position to do it. The same would apply to most of the girls. The mothers seek a great position for their daughters—go to great expense teaching them the piano and other accomplishments; but they do not teach them what all women should know—the position and duties of a wife and mother, and to do what would be required of them in after-life. Now, there are any amount of girls who can sing and play the piano, do a little drawing, and dance to perfection; but if you asked them to cook some food, asked them to make their own underclothing, to knit you a pair of stockings, to mend your clothes, or even their own clothes, you would find they would not be able to do it. The neglect lies, of course, with the mother and parents, because they have been—what we call in English—creeping up on a bad foundation; because these accomplishments should be given with the former I have mentioned, but the latter are absolutely essential and necessary. I am now bringing you to a point where I want to use what I have just now said simply as an illustration. I say if you will see that your children go through the Sixth Standard in the primary schools, and are well up in the subjects, and pass well in such standard, they are then sufficiently well educated, and able to hold the best positions in the colony. You take the number that pass satisfactorily the Sixth or Seventh Standard—which is, of course, attached to most of the schools—and you will find there is a very small percentage. Now, it is simply madness to attempt to send any boy to college who has not passed the Sixth or Seventh Standard in the public schools. If a child in the primary schools shows superior natural ability, and proves his or her superiority over the others, then there is the system, by means of scholarship, which enables the parent to send the child to any district High School in the colony. Whether some special facilities should be given in regard to this phase of the question in reference to our Native schools is a matter for inquiry, and I will look into it. I will see, to show I am sincere in dealing with this question, what the position is. I will get a return of the number of youths of both standards who are in the Native schools north of Auckland. If you ask for the Sixth Standard in your schools, you are only asking for what you should have; and I say at once, you are entitled to it, and should have it. If the children are only being taught up to the fourth Standard, what is the use of talking about secondary schools? They must first advance to the Sixth and Seventh Standards: then you could talk about a higher. The children should be taught up to the Sixth and Seventh Standards in their schools at home—that is the remedy. If the matter is brought before the Government, I shall certainly say you should have this done. If you were to ask that there should be some school centrally situated, which required an increased building, an increased staff, a staff competent to teach up to the Sixth and Seventh Standards, and that such school should subsequently be made a district High School, then, I think, that is a step in the right direction. In reference thereto I will have inquiries made, and see whether something can be done, for I do see the danger of children going to a place where they contract disease. I can understand that; and I do not page 46 think it is right that children who only get past the Fourth Standard should be sent from school. You want a school where they teach up to the Sixth or Seventh Standard, and you should ask that it be made a district High School. When you have asked that, you can ask for a teacher to come and teach the higher subjects afterwards. I will discuss the matter with the Minister of Education on my return to Wellington. Of course I am Premier, but I have not the management of the Education Department. However, I know this: that the Minister of Education is most anxious to assist, and so are all my colleagues. Yesterday I was very hospitably entertained, and was very much pleased at meeting the Natives, but to-day is to me a great pleasure, and my visit here—a much greater pleasure than any I enjoyed yesterday. I am pleased to find the parents of the children here taking such an interest in their education. This proves they are good parents, and the children will in after-life bless them for it. I should now like to hear the children, if the teacher will take them in hand.

The Premier, after hearing the children read and sing, expressed himself as much satisfied. He told them they had now an opportunity of obtaining education, and without that education their position in life would be a worse one than if they were educated. He hoped they were good children, and regular attendants at school.

The party then proceeded on their journey to Kawerua, and thence via Helensville, Kaukapa-kapa, and Warkworth to Auckland, where they remained two days before proceeding by steamer to Whakatane via Tauranga. The Premier received several deputations of Europeans at each of the above places, but the meetings with Natives were only resumed at