Provincialism Encouraged and Needed Elsewhere.

When we compare our Institutions, as they have been developed, under the Provincial form, throughout the Colony, with the institutions of other Colonies, we have no reason to be dissatisfied. If we are not so wealthy as some of our neighbors, we have other reasons for satisfaction with being as we are. In Queensland, the Government are introducing measures with a view to a Provincial system. I believe that until a Provincial system is introduced in New South Wales, there will never be removed that curse of crime which is now overspreading the Colony. Have not, our Provincial Institutions worked well in aiding Education?—(Hear, hear.) Do we find that, in our outlying districts, we have a population growing up, not only without education, but with an inclination to crime? I believe firmly, that until something like our form of Government is at work in New South Wales, that Colony will never escape the crime taint which is now blighting its population. In Victoria, I believe, Provincialism would be a cure for the disgraceful state of things which has so long existed in that Colony—want of appropriations year after year—the public service, and creditors in the Colony, long delayed in payment, and vastly inconvenienced as a consequence. If that mischievous political activity which has done so much to bring about the existing complications in Victoria could be absorbed in the narrower sphere of Provincialism, I believe that the Colonial Legislature would be much purer and wiser than it now is. What is the tendency in the new Dominion of Canada, but that of introducing a Provincial system with much larger powers than those which the Provinces of New Zealand have exercised? What is the difference between the parts of the United States and our Provinces, except that a State has greater powers than a Province? All the world over, as I believe, the tendency is to an encouragement of a Provincial system of Government, with a Federal union. The result of such a system, I think, is to constitute a powerful State, by first making healthy and vigorous its several parts in the shape of Provinces.—(Applause.) At present, in New Zealand, we cannot improve our Provincial Institutions, because, on the slightest appearance of discontent, an appeal is encouraged, and is made, elsewhere for a change. Let the people understand that the Provincial system will continue to exist, and the people will then set to work to improve that system. You will then have better Provincial Councils and Governments: the whole machinery of the system will be bettered and invigorated. It is the uncertainty of continuance which causes men, when error or fault is seen, not to seek to improve the system, but to fly to any empirical propounder of a scheme for changing it.—(Applause.) It is in times I of trial that the value of things is tested. I None can say how a rich and prosperous man who never knew temptation, would act if tempted as thousands of the poor are tempted daily. I would urge upon you that now, in the time of trial and temptation, when our Constitution is in danger, because of the difficulties which have been made to appear to surround its working—now is the time when you should remember what that Constitution has done for the country, and what it is capable of doing, if it is honestly administered. The present is the time for the people to declare, "We have lived under this Constitution. We love it. It has upon the whole worked well. We shall never get another which we can love as we have loved this one. We will stand by, and preserve, that which we have!"—(Applause.) The people will not regret so saving and so doing. I am second to none, in the aspiration that New Zealand may become a great country. But I believe that great- page 14 ness, as a whole, is best sought by resolving to secure sound healthiness in the several parts.—(Applause.) I desire not to see New Zealand with a brilliant outside, and with rottenness within. No change in the form of your Government will enable you to change shillings of revenue into pounds; but you may painfully scoop up all the shillings you can command, and place them at the absolute disposal of a Central Government. You may sacrifice your Provincial system, for one called Local; and you may find as the result, one gorgeous system in the centre, and elsewhere nothing that can be independent, or responsible, or useful. Is it not better to accept New Zealand as it is, and to labor to improve what is? By a wonderfully courageous experiment, these islands have been colonised as from many different points. It would be vain, with our means, to attempt a more diffusive system: the utmost limit, in that respect, has been reached. Let us resolve that the country shall be great hereafter, if greatness may be achieved; but that, at all events, we will build up its parts soundly and healthily, with patient love for our work, and animated by the conviction that if greatness may not be achieved, at least happiness will be secured. We may have better than a splendid—we may have a happy land.—(Applause.) Truly has it been said—

Ye friends of truth, ye statesmen who survey

The rich man's joys increase, the poor's decay—

'Tis yours to say. how wide the limits stand. Between a splendid and a happy land!

(Loud and prolonged applause.) Mr Vogel resumed his seat, his speech having occupied just two hours.

Mr Muir: If a Bill was brought into the Assembly to endow Local or District Road Boards, would you support it?

Mr Vogel: If the endowment is to come through the Province, and to be paid out of Provincial revenue—Yes. I introduced such a Bill into the Assembly, the session before last. If the endowment is to come from the Consolidated Revenue, and the working of the system to be by the Central Government—No.

In reply to questions by Mr W. A. Murray,

Mr Vogel said he was perfectly sure that the Provinces could be strengthened and invigorated, and the system brought back to what it was originally intended to be, without the injustice of giving to one Province what belonged to another. He did not object to the Assembly codifying the laws of the Colony as opportunities presented themselves; but he did object to scraps of additional power to the General Government being thrown in, from time to time, during the work of codification. Of course, the Assembly would legislate from time to time; and legislation by the Assembly would, by the provisions of the Constitution Act, supersede legislation upon the same subjects by any of the Provincial Councils. Let the Assembly go on honestly, year by year, making laws that were common to all the Provinces: the more that was done in that way, the less there would be left for the Provincial Councils to legislate upon. But let not Provincial Councils be deprived of legislative powers, which they might frequently be able to use for the public benefit. He had by no means said, or implied, that improvements or alterations in the Constitution Act might not be necessary: what he had said was, that it was our duty to mature the Constitution in its pure spirit, not to revolutionise it. He thought it would be well to ask the Imperial Government and Parliament to provide that the Constitution Act should not be altered without the assent of a clear majority of two-thirds of the Assembly. He did not think that 50 acres ought to be the limit of land to be given under an Agricultural Lease. Indeed, last session, he did all he could to get the quantity increased to 100 acres. Mr Mervyn and himself worked together on the subject. The House of Representatives passed the amendment, but the Legislative Council threw it out, after two Conferences had taken place. The Assembly had no power to say that what it did one session should not be undone the next; but it was exceedingly unlikely, if a distilling interest grew up under the Act establishing a differential duty on spirits, that the Assembly would then do away with that duty. He supported the differential duty; Mr Reid, he believed, opposed it, as not necessary.

Mr J. L. Gillies: You have referred to the many mischievous statements which are being made. A statement has been made in this Province, that we are getting deeper and deeper into debt every day. Can you tell us, how much deeper in debt we are now, than we were when the L500,000 Loan was expended, though not negotiated, under Major Richardson's Superintendency ?

Mr Vogel: There has not been one fresh loan since that time. There has page 15 been a guarantee on the railway given, and on a dock, and other guarantees to a small amount; but instead of the loan-debt having been increased, about L40,000 of Sinking Fund has accrued.

Mr Muir: Was there not a proposal made to the Council last session, for a loan of L120,000?

Mr Vogel: Yes; but that is not a loan contracted.—(Laughter.)

Mr Muir: There was a resolution passed by the Council last session, that the Government be instructed to give notice to all their officers, so that the services of all or any of those officers might be dispensed with, on or before the 30th April, 1869. Has that been done ?

Mr Gillies urged that it was most unfair to put such a question, except in the Provincial Council.

Mr Muir: I may not have an opportunity of putting it there.

Mr Vogel could only reply, that the subject was still under the consideration of the Government. The great difficulty of the Government was to understand what the Council intended by the resolution. On one hand, it was said to be the idea of the Select Committee from which the resolution came, that certain officers should be at once paid off, receiving 12 months' salary: on the other, that every officer was now to receive 12 months' notice, and that, at the end of the notice, those not needed should t e discharged.

Mr Muir: The idea was, without doing anything like injustice, to put the Government in a position to get rid of those officers who are not needed.

In reply to Mr Jones,

Mr Vogel said that he was not at liberty to state the precise position of the negotiations as to the Railway. They were going on, and the Government had hopes of success. The Government would, during the session of the Assembly, do all that was possible, to secure that, if the present negotiations failed, the Railway should be secured by other means. He believed that the commencement of the Railway was a much nearer thing than many people supposed. he was opposed to protection; but he thought it perfectly legitimate to offer special inducements for the starting of industries which might, and he believed would, be able then to maintain themselves permanently, without bounties.

A few other questions having been asked and answered,

Mr Gillies moved—

That this meeting thank Mr Vogel for his courtesy and promptitude in responding to a request to address a meeting in Tokomairiro, and express a general approval of the views he has enunciated this evening, especially those bearing upon the Relations of the General and Provincial Governments.

Mr Church seconded the motion; and it was adopted unanimously, and with loud applause.

The proceedings were concluded with thanks to Mr Brown, for presiding.