Salient Interview

We've fought in the streets of course. We've fought all over the world to gain what we're after. As far as promoting industry and the welfare of the people, we want to put this first we want to stop industrial unrest—there seems to be too much of it. As I said in the Party Programme, we don't want the unions to become just a political pressure group. We want them to become more assistant to the Government. In other words, make labour work together as they're doing in West Germany at the moment where union officials are actually on the payroll of the management. They actually participate in the management of the factories. This is how we reckon unions should be run in this country, and that's what that point aims at, promoting better relations in industry.

What is it that your Party stands for that so markedly distinguishes it from anybody else?

In this country of course we're not the same as what you read about overseas. We're not a racist organisation.

Why not? If the Nazi Parties in Britain and Australia . . .

In Australia, they've got an all-white Australia policy but in America they're pushing this desegregation, they're forcing people to go with blacks, you'll get the white backlash. The Nazi Party there of course is cashing in on it. They're cashing in on this anti-black. And of course you've got the Black Panthers running round and shooting up people. You find, in most cases, the negroes are mostly communist. They're preaching the works of Mao; they're running round with their little red books. And of course you'll find most of these negro organisations have at least two or three jews on the Board of Directors.

In most of the negro organisations?

Yes.

And this communist influence is pretty strong amongst the negroes?

It is, yes. In New Zealand here we don't have the same Communist Party though it's really a minority. Of course they've got their branches like Care and Hart.

They're branches of the Communist Party?

Yes, they are communist organisations. Of course the PYM claim they're not communist, but . . .

And Care and Hart and the PYM are communist organisations . . . What other bodies do you think are either communist or communist-influenced?

There was one other body many years ago called 'Ban the Bomb' crowd.

The "Ban the Bomb' crowd?

They were communist. Since China's got the bomb, they've suddenly died away. No one's heard anything more from them. It's happened throughout the world. You don't see any more big 'ban the bomb' marches, since China got the bomb. When Russia had the bomb, the States had the bomb, of course, there were lots of marches. You've probably seen them in Auckland, all over the world, but suddenly the Chinese got their first bomb and these groups died away.

What about communist-influenced groups in New Zealand? Do you think there are very many of these?

Not too many. There's the unions of course, they're pretty well communist-influenced. Either communist or the Russian Socialist Unity Party.

It seems then that one of the principal emphases of your party is on this anti-communist line . . .

You could say we're anti-communist. Of course we're anti-Jew, because Jews are communists

You're anti-communist and you're anti-Jew because Jews are communists?

A lot of leading communists are Jews. To give an example: Lenin was a Jew. His name's Goldman, alias Lenin. Trotsky—the character who I think was murdered in Mexico—his name's Bernstein. Another example, Emma Goldman in the United States, head of the Communist Party over there, she's a Jew.

You're also opposed to capitalism, aren't you?

Yes.

And where do you think this manifests itself in New Zealand?

From the Jews.

The Jews again?

They are the capitalists. They're playing both sides of the paddock. You hear of some of them in Russia—the Jews there being persecuted. Of course there is the familiar case of one bunch of Jews persecuting another bunch. In other words, you've got the atheist Jews against the orthodox Jews. That is, capitalism and communism. You've got your atheist Jews who are usually the communists, and your capitalist Jews who are usually in most cases, running a country.

'I'd like to refer now to your Party Programme. Point 9 reads: "It must be the first duty of each citizen to work with his mind or his body for the good of the nation. The activities of the individual must not clash with the interests of the whole, but must proceed within the framework of the community and be for the general good." Could you explain this principle a little further?

Well, everybody really is a shareholder in the prosperity of any country. We pay our taxes, we expect at least to have a stable government and a stable financial system. I can give a good example: Germany of the 1920's. If you've ever seen some of the bank notes they turned out then, 100 million mark notes that you could only go and buy a loaf of bread with ... I don't want to ever sec that come to this country. That was a good, example of a depression, or a financial system gone mad, gone crazy. There was industrial unrest, strikes, because Germany had the whole of the first World War to carry on its shoulders, paying out large quantities of manufactured goods to Britain and France and other countries. But that point was actually drawn from the original policy.

The original policy of the Nazi Party in Germany?

Yes, the original 1923 policy. Every person should contribute something to the nation. Even if he happens to be a street cleaner, he is contributing something, in his own way, to the prosperity of the nation—he's keeping the streets clean. In other words, it means every job, regardless of what you're doing, is an honourable job.

Point 21, now: "We stand for honest press but we shall make it a criminal offense for any medium of the public information or entertainment to consciously mislead the public by lies, misrepresentations, omissions, deletions or by any other method whatsoever."

A good example of this problem was a piece in the Auckland Star, it had no news significance, someone had decided they'd rehash the idea of the concentration camps. Right in the middle of the news features, it had no news interest, just happened to be rehashing of old ideas. Reopening of old wounds really, that's all it was. Some article that had come out of Poland. It was written by a Jew. I replied to it, outlined the whole theory; the letter was never published.

What did you have to say in your letter?

I outlined the whole theory of the 6 million, quoted from a newspaper report in The New York Times—which is a Jewish newspaper—by a Jewish correspondent who stated in his article that in 1938 there were 10 million Jews in the world and in 1948 there were 19 million Jews. That means, basically, that if 6 million had been killed in Germany it would mean an increase of over 11 million.

And they didn't publish this letter?

No, But if you worked it out, it would have meant that every Jew would have been having sexual intercourse with every Jewess of child-bearing age 24 hours a day, during those 10 years. It's not humanly possible, even for Jews. You'd have over 11 million Jews under the age of 10.

To what extent is your Programme a redraft of the 1923 Nazi Party Programme?

There isn't much of the 1923 Programme. Actually we've followed quite a few programmes: we've gone through every programme produced by every Party.

Every party everywhere?

Yes, the Australian Party, the American, Colin Jordan's former Party; he had a very good programme there. Basically his programme would be the same, except we've adapted it to New Zealand, as far as industry goes. But it's more close to home, so to speak. He aimed his Party programme for both Australia and New Zealand. In those days, of course, he was interested in the Commonwealth National Socialist Union, rather than the world.

Do you have a great deal of correspondence with people like the Australian Nazi Party?

A bit of correspondence. Unfortunately, I don't get on too well with the Australian Nazi leader.

Why's that?

I consider him to be an upstart.

What's his name?

Wenberg. He seems to have the wild idea that he wants to make New Zealand part of Australia. I'm a nationalist. I won't wear it. I don't think any New Zealander, any good New Zealander, would wear the idea of us becoming part of Australia. I don't want to see Australia's problems out here. They've got an all-white policy. Imagine how the Maori people would feel as second-class citizens? That's what the Australians want. It's in their own programme—that New Zealand should become part of Australia.

How about Parties in Germany itself or in the United States, or in Britain?

In the States, of course, there's the World Union, and the National Socialist White People's Party at Arlington, Virginia. They are the main body, but we're not affiliated to the World Union. We're independent.

Why?

The World Union's policy, the Cotswold Agreement, is too binding. It is a white extremist policy. It's too binding for New Zealand. I don't want to bind New Zealand down to any other country.

It's this racist element that you reject?

Yes. I also reject their policy for the simple reason that in the Cotswold Agreement it states that there shall be one world leader and every country shall be represented by him. In other words, there'll be one world dictator. I don't page 12 think I would like to be ruled by an American. Certainly I don't want the President of the United States telling me what to do.

The Cotswold Agreement—when was that drawn up?

It was drawn up in Britain in 1962.

By whom?

By representatives of Great Britain, United States (represented by Rockwell), France Belgium, Germany, a few small splinter groups from various eastern countries, refugee group . . . Australia was there—Arthur Smith in those days.

Arthur Smith. What happened to him?

Last I heard of him he'd disappeared to Flanders Island in Bass Strait.

What's at Flanders Island?

It's just the place where he happens to be hiding at the present time.

Why?

Arthur Smith was an . . . idiot. Actually his right-hand man is living in New Zealand at the present time.

Who's that?

Mr [unclear: Jo] Former President of the Australian National Socialist Unity Party. He led the Party after Smith disappeared.

I should imagine you found that sort of contact a great help.

Oh yes, he's a great help. He was the one that edited the programme down to the original thirty points.

Why, was it bigger than that before?

I had a lot of ideas. He took them down and put them into some sort of order.

And does he work fairly closely with you?

Yes.

What does he do in Auckland?

He's a Union representative.

Which union?

I'm not saying. Just in case someone gets wise to it. I believe he does expound his political views but he's pretty high up in the unions.

Quite a few other Party members are. In various unions; clerical workers, engineers, hotel workers . . . We've got a few people in minor positions in the freezing works, but it's pretty well a closed union. It's communist. They've made no bones about that. You'll find that where there's a gathering of freezing workers, there's always someone selling People's Voice.

Does it just happen that the sort of people who are attracted by your programme or who get interested in it are in these particular organisations or are you looking for people in the unions?

No, we're not. These people in most cases have been elected since they've become Party members.

But they haven't been elected on your Party's programme?

No. They've been elected because they've provec, themselves to be leaders, and to be forceful speakers; people who are prepared to get down and do something. In most cases a lot of these unions have been weak unions where they've had no representation to the management. The management has actually been running roughshod all over them, and these people have come forward, they've organised their members into a group. A good example was the Engineers' Union in a certain factory, not locally. Quite a big factory.

In Otara?

No. In Auckland, Actually in the Penrose district. They had no union representative. One of our members organised the union people into a strong group. This chap is one of our biggest financial supporters too—he's been a Party member for well over 50 years, he was one of the early members of the German Party, he's a German, he's living in New Zealand here and working down at this place as an engineer. An way, now the people at this factory are getting what they want: a proper rate of pay and proper working conditions. You'll find all political parties have some sort of influence in the unions. The Labour Party would be by far the biggest.

Do you have any influence in the Hotel Workers' Union?

Not at the moment. I used to at one time.

Would it prejudice the sort of effectiveness your Party members could have in, say, unions if it was known that they were members of the Party?

No. Look at people like Bill Anderson, Secretary of the Drivers' Union—he's know to be a member of the Socialist Unity Party, but he's a good organiser and therefore, as long as that person is capable of doing his job that's all the members worry about.

So it wouldn't worry the union people to know that people are members of your Party?

No. All of them are members of some party, at some time.

Are you worried about recriminations from people?

No. I'm not worried. People get on my back, but I don't think that really worries me at all. I'm always having somebody grumbling about something. Actually, the majority of people I run into seem to think I'm a communist.

How often do you have meetings here?

Once a month.

And how many people attend meetings?

Well it depends on whether they can get away. Some of them are working in the evenings, some are not.

But you'd get, what, 20 or 30 people, or more?

About 20. We expect more at the next meeting, of course, because there's a film evening tied in with it.

And the films are . . .?

Actually it's a film called Crimes of Adolf Hitler. It's made by a Jewish film company, Metro Goldwyn Mayer. And they've just produced this one The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich. I don't think it's been shown in Wellington yet; it's just finished in Auckland.

"The Rise & Fall of the Third Reich" is of course a book by William Shirer.

Who's also a Jew. He appears in the film. He's gone to great lengths to actually try and make it look as stupid as possible.

The Third Reich?

Yes. He's shown things I've never seen before. I believe there were real concentration camps, but the gas chambers, no.

You don't believe that the gas chambers existed?

No, I don't, Crematoriums, yes. There was one crematorium at Auschwitz.

What did you need crematoriums for?

There were people dying.

Why were they dying?

There was starvation in Germany. It wasn't just in the concentration camps. It was throughout the whole German population. There were people dying. Natural causes. You got people dying of natural causes. Old people.

But people in Germany were not gassed?

As far as I know, no.

When you say, as far as you know . . .

As far as I know from what records I've had access to, and from reports overseas, in some cases from people who've actually seen these concentration camps.

I'd like to ask some questions now about your own background. For a start, how old are you?

25. I was born locally, of course, in Otahuhu.

You went to school here?

Yes. I wanted to be a soldier. I worked for the Government.

Which Department?

Defence Department.

What section were you in?

Army. I was in the services for a while. Then I came out and took a job for a while with a drug company, looking after their books and that.

And you had accounting experience?

Yes.

At school?

In the Army.

You went straight into the Army?

No. No I worked for a while.

Where was this?

In the hospitals. I was a porter there.

At what age did you go into the hospital?

I'd be about 17 then.

And so you into the hospitals, and then you went on into the Army . . .

No, left the hospital and went into a factory as their quality control engineer.

How old were you then?

I'd be about 19—18 or 19.

And the Army, was this CMT?

No, no, regular force.

But you didn't like the Army?

I didn't like it very much, no. I wasn't the type of person who could settle down and knuckle under anybody else. I was too independent.

For how long were you in the Army?

A year and a half. And I came out and settled down in a company where I had a free hand virtually to myself. I was my own department. I was responsible for the pricing of all their goods, that was my job. Looking after all imports coming in, checking figures from overseas, adding to the freight and wharfage charges, which can be pretty high in this country. Adding them all up and then setting the cost price, for each individual item, using mostly calculators.

And after you finished that job?

I went into the army for a while, as a civilian employee.

How long were you there?

A few months.

And then you went into the bar job?

Then I went into the hotel trade. That was after 10 o'clock closing came in, there were more prospects then.

And at the moment you're a . . .

In a hotel. As a steward.

Do you have any interests other than your work in the National Socialist Party?

I'm interested in youth. And I'm forming a small youth group—independent of the Party; more or less a group of young chaps interested in military training, hiking, climbing, things like that.

Where will this be?

In Otahuhu. I've got a few other interests. I'm a member of different groups, of course.

Such as?

The Samoan Progressive Movement, I'm a member of that. That's the only one at the present time. I'm also forming a New Zealand Deutchesbund—a German Club.

But there are German Clubs now aren't there?

Not in this country. There are no German clubs whatsoever. I've already spoken to the German Consul. He's very enthusiastic with the idea of a German Club.

Will he give you any help?

Yes. I think so, yes.

To return now to the Party Programme: what you mean by Point 26—"We shall take vigor methods to restore to women the dignity status they deserve as creators of our citizens?

Well, motherhood should be a trade. Girls [unclear: sho] learn the arts of how to run a home, [unclear: ho] management, home accounts, things like [unclear: t] This could become a course, they can [unclear: do] school, or in university.

You think all girls should be encouraged to this?

Yes. Very strongly. There's been a lack of it. [unclear: You] can see how many marriages go on the rocks.

The next point in the Party Programme says [unclear: "]shall deal ruthlessly and efficiently with [unclear: habit] criminals instead of the present policy of [unclear: treat] them as lost sheep," and you've noted in programme that the Nazi Party intends "rescue most of the criminal teenagers by [unclear: dea] with their need for action and [unclear: excitem] realistically by forming them into [unclear: para-milit] organisations of the Police Youth [unclear: Auxiliar] patrol our streets and to turn louts [unclear: over] regular authorities." You seem to tend [unclear: more] punishment of criminals than [unclear: rehabilitation] your Programme.

But I don't mean punishment such as the [unclear: bi] or something like that. I think the [unclear: w] punishment you can give to a criminal [unclear: is] humiliate him.

Is the most humiliating punishment the [unclear: one] should give, or not?

Yes, it is. I think that nothing could make [unclear: a] feel smallest than to be out in the streets [unclear: work] in a conspicuous uniform; people probably [unclear: co] point at him. This is the system used in a [unclear: lot] countries now, specially in Eastern [unclear: Eurc] Public humitiation is one of their main [unclear: penlt] Make the criminal feel asharmed. As far as [unclear: yo] goes, we'd from them into groups like, say, Scout Association—that cates for a small [unclear: amo] of the youth, only a small amount. We [unclear: n] other organisations, like a large national [unclear: y] other organisation, where the youth can [unclear: participate] sports, organised programmes, gymnastics if interested in it, athletics, shooting or [unclear: archary] he's capable. But bring all these little [unclear: c] together into one organisation so youth have a chance to let off a bit of steam, rather [unclear: than] out wrecking buildings, breaking windows. [unclear: Th] what they do, they let off steam.

You referred before to the birch. You're [unclear: not] favour of the use of the birch?

No. It gains nothing. In fact, you actually [unclear: ha] the criminal. Neither does having a [unclear: headshrin] a look at him help either. They tried that [unclear: on] that They had three different headshrinkers [unclear: work] me.

This was a result of the synagogue [unclear: incide] Could you go over that? You, threw a [unclear: br] through a window, or something . . .

Brick through a window.

This was a synagogue in Auckland?

Yes. In those days it was in Princes/[unclear: Bow] Street, just outside old Government House.

And you threw a brick through a window?

Brick through a window.

Why?

In those days I wasn't a National Socialist. I [unclear: v] just an anti-Jew. I was very much in [unclear: favour] supporting Nasser.

Were there many people like you?

Quite a few.

When was this?

Ah, '67.

And you threw the brick through the [unclear: wind] and you were apprehended by the police. [unclear: The] what happened?

I was sentenced to 18 months imprisonment, a Jewish magistrate. Mr Izard.

You haven't had any trouble since then?

No real trouble. I've had the police around a [unclear: f] times, keeping an eye on me. The officer [unclear: w] arrested me, he's been around a few times.

What are they interested in now?

Just making sure I'm not out [unclear: bomb] something.

They think you're going to do that do they?

Probably, after the recent spate of bombings. page 13 [unclear: ey] think the left are mainly involved. They [unclear: st] check and make sure we're not involved too.

[unclear: nd] why did you throw the brick through the [unclear: dow?]

[unclear: o it] was just some stupid thing that we did. I [unclear: sn't] sober.

[unclear: you] regret that now?

[unclear: t] really, no. It made up my mind which way [unclear: I s] is heading. I was like a lot of young chaps who [unclear: re] just on the fringes.

[unclear: w] did you come to be National leader?

[unclear: was] the only one of the original group who [unclear: ayed] on. There were originally small groups at started out . . .

[unclear: ow] many people?

[unclear: roup] of six.

[unclear: nd] what's happened to the other people?

[unclear: pped] or faded out, some have left the [unclear: y.] some have gone overseas. I was the [unclear: only] so I decided to start the whole lot off

[unclear: his] original group of six, were you a group of [unclear: nds] who shared the same sort of ideas?

[unclear: we] met practically every weekend. Two [unclear: of] in the same place.

[unclear: There] was that?

[unclear: be hotel]

[unclear: That] would you do what would you [unclear: ise]

[unclear: orld] Problems at the time; latest [unclear: correspondence] arrived from overseas—we [unclear: were] direct contact with George Lincoln [unclear: ockwell]. I still have the recorded he sent me.

[unclear: the] group break up because of disagreement [unclear: poli]

[unclear: o], no. We had no [unclear: set] policy in those days After [unclear: put] prison of course, I looked around. [unclear: I] round to see if another group had [unclear: attend] to see what was left of it. One of [unclear: the] group is still in New Zealand. He's still on [unclear: fringes], but he's not sure, can't make up [unclear: his]

[unclear: you] went [unclear: up no] a new group. Did [unclear: you] great deal of interested?

[unclear: Yes], a great deal. I formed a new group in 1969 [unclear: nd] in June 1969 it officially became the Nazi [unclear: arty.]

[unclear: Then] you started holding regular meetings?

[unclear: ostly] interviewing people for a start. Sorting [unclear: but] the leader and members.

[unclear: and] what's your current membership? People [unclear: who've] actually paid up the membership fee?

[unclear: Actually] membership's kept a secret, if you [unclear: don't]

[unclear: Why] is that?

[unclear: We] don't like to reveal our full strength.

[unclear: Well] I'm quite happy for you to tell me just as [unclear: such] as it suits you, but can you tell me why it [unclear: s] that you keep it a secret?

[unclear: Well] at the moment we're not designing on the [unclear: ame] lines as Hitler. We have no storm troopers. I [unclear: on't] believe in storm troopers.

[unclear: o] you're not leading an organisation that's going [unclear: o] overthrow the Government at the moment?

[unclear: No.]

[unclear: Well], why then are you concerned about the [unclear: number?]

[unclear: Well], the numbers fluctuate, you could say. You [unclear: get] one leader down in the South Island saying [unclear: e've] got a couple of thousand members. The [unclear: act] is that propaganda is propaganda. Even [unclear: Rockwell] used to use the art of propaganda. No [unclear: one] really knew particularly what his membership was. But when he did turn out, he [unclear: urned] up in large force.

[unclear: Well], can you give it to me within a hundred, or within fifty, or within ten or . . .

[unclear: t's] over a hundred. It's climbing very close to [unclear: wo] hundred.

[unclear: These] are the people who've paid up the 3 or 5 [unclear: ollar] fee?

[unclear: or] 5 dollars.

[unclear: And] supporters?

[unclear: Supporters] are the $2 ones.

I see, So this is a total of supporters and an actual membership?

Yes.

Are you living at home at the moment? That's your mother and family?

Yes. I don't want their address printed.

Not in Salient?

No. You can print the Post Office box number if you like. You sec my parents are not the same believers. That's what she was going crook at.

I think the opinion of the majority of New Zealanders who knew anything about it would be that Naziism is a bad thing.

Oh yes.

Do you find that this makes it difficult for you to get on with other people?

No, no.

This doesn't make problems at all?

Very few problems. I get the odd idiot occasionally—who hasn't got any more brains than a louse, but you get these odd sort of fools.

People don't know very much about you, for example, do they?

No.

Why not?

I'm a mystery, even to some of my members. Very few of them have actually met me. I don't make a habit of travelling very far.

Why is that?

At the moment my work commitment gives me very little time for travel. Unlike other people who work 5 days week 6, in most cases I work on say a Monday to Saturday basis when I only get Sunday off, then one day further in the week off.

But how, for example, would one find out the box number of the New Zealand Nazi Party?

It's advertised in the NZ Herald and we advertise in the Dominion occasionally. There's only one paper which has been prepared to publish anything about us other than advertising, that was the Southland Times. They did a full-page picture article on the Party.

And were they fair in the article?

Reasonably fair, yes. It wasn't anything to do with me. It was to do with my Southland branch.

And who organises that?

Mr Silvester in Southland. He's the Deputy Leader of the Party. And he organises the South Island. He lives in Waikaka—it's a little town near Gore. He's got branches in Dunedin, Invercargill, in his own area, Timaru, Ashburton, Christchurch, on the West Coast, and Picton.

And the North Island? How's that going?

We've got branches in Wellington. Hastings. Hamilton and Auckland.

And your Wellington branch. Who runs that?

At the moment a Mr Campbell. He'll be leaving for overseas shortly.

And who will take over from him do you think?

That's up to the committee. They'll get applications from the various members down there for the position.

Where does Mr Campbell work, if I want to get hold of him?

I don't know where he works actually, I only know his home address.

What's that?

2 Lynn Road, Wellington.

Do you know where that is?

No, I don't. I've never been to Wellington. Except for passing through in the booby wagon, via Witaka and Mt Crawford: that's the only time I've seen Wellington.

You said before that after your prison period, or during it, you were examined by a psychiatrist?

During. A chap called Harry Cohen. A Jew. He tried to convince me that everything I was doing was wrong.

What did he have to say?

Oh, the usual story. He was a Jew, an orthodox Jew, happened to be an ex-prison officer, he happened to suddenly decide he was going to study psychology and took on that job. He wasn't actually qualified, and he tried to convince me but after a few sessions I think he gave me up as a bad job. I just continued to read what I wanted to read and do what I wanted to do. I proved my point. I ended up as the editor of the prison newspaper. I had all the facilities I wanted, typewriter, record player, tape recorder, all those in my cell.

Did you put any of the Party philosophy in the prison newspaper?

Very little, but I made it very anti-establishment. Don't have any copies around now, I've got some tucked away upstairs. It was called The Drum. It was a cyclostyled magazine type of thing.

This was at Mt Crawford?

No. Paparua. That's where I finally ended up. I spent about 8 months of my sentence there. I was there during that escape, when those three took off in the truck. They were in the same gang I was in. I was in the know as to what was happening . . .

And what did you think of prison life?

It was all right. Quite bearable, It depends where you happen to be ...

When you say it was quite bearable, I mean did you enjoy it?

I quite enjoyed it. Because I had everything my own way. If I wanted something I got it. I was running all the films down there. I was in practically every group that was going Music group, discussion group . . . to keep me occupied. Prison's only what you make it. If you're occupied with something to do, time goes quickly. In most eases I spent the weekend in my cell, just reading. If I wasn't involved in some group activity some group activity somewhere. I gave them a decent film show because I was a qualified projectionist.

Now, for the future, what do you think will happen to the Nazi Party in New Zealand?

I hope to be there when it rises to power and I think we will. I think we will appeal to people eventually.

And how will you do this? By talking to people, by telling them what you believe in?

Yes. I think that with the policy we've got at the present time we could rise to power. But it'll have to be expanded a great deal of course. Individual items have to be worked out to explain to people what we want. But we are attracting a different type of person than they did in the thirties. We're not getting ruffians now. We're getting more educated people. For example, we get quite a few public servants. In Wellington we've got quite a number. Some of them are in action in the Ministry of Finance, some of them are in External Affairs Department, they're a great help to us.

When you say some of them, you mean more than one or two?

Yes.

Are there other areas in Wellington where you've got Party members?

In the Ministry of Defence and some in the actual Army itself, we encourage members to join the Army of course. It's one way of training the members into discipline.

Is discipline a very important consideration?

Yes. There's a lack of it in this country, a great lack of it actually . . .

And the value of discipline is what?

Well that people have self-control. They learn self-control, how to control themselves.

But why should one control oneself?

It's hard to explain. I consider discipline as essential to growing up. You find most of these characters who knock discipline away usually end up roaming the streets as bums, they're not able to keep a job. You see them all the time, usually in most cases they've been rejected from military service because they're unfit. You can also see them as I see them, across the bar-dirty, unwashed alcoholics. By the way, we didn't add the police to the members earlier.

There are Party members in the police force?

Oh yes.

When you say "Oh Yes," you mean there are a number of members in the police force?

Quite a few.

Where? In Wellington? In Auckland?

Wellington and Auckland, with a few other smaller centres throughout the country.

It's difficult to know what you mean when you say "quite a few". You mean 3 or 4 in Auckland? 4 or 5 in Wellington?

I'd say 10 of our members would be policemen in the Auckland district.

And in Wellington?

I wouldn't be quite sure on the Wellington numbers. I know one person who's written to me, who said he's a member of the police. He's a detective.

Have you ever thought of the possibility that these people are applying for membership or writing to you and getting interested in your organisation in order to keep track of you, rather than to . . .

Oh yes. They're welcome. We've got nothing to hide. The police come to my office, they're entitled to check the books, we help them in every way. We even allow the police to check our financial system. Everything's kept in the books. Ledgers are kept.

Do you have very many members with, say, more than secondary education! people with a university education?

Yes quite a few.

Where's this? In Auckland?

Not so much in Auckland, but more in wellington. We've got one chap that's in his forties, he's completing now a Master's degree at Victoria University.

In what subject?

Political Science.

You can't tell me his name can you?

No, I can't remember—he's a pretty old chap, he works for the Government also. He's already got one degree, a degree starting with an [unclear: Fo] something.

The future of the Nazi Party then is for you a very promising one and it's going to be achieves by pamphlets . . .

And democratic means, we have to get away from the fear of the people that we're going to just have a march on Wellington, or something like that.

What about other groups in New Zealand? Have you had any contact with the National Front?

Yes.

What are they like?

I don't know much about them out here. Overseas they're big, in London, yes.

Well, there's this chap Thompson, the National Secretary of the National Front, isn't there?

Yes. I believe he's quite a powerful speaker. I've never actually heard him speak.

Would their aims be in any way in line with yours?

His aims, from what I know of them, are similar to mine in some aspects, but he goes for this all-white policy.

What about the Country Party? Do you have am sympathy with what they believe?

I don't know much about their group. You don't seem to hear so much about them in Auckland. [unclear: I] don't think they have any branches locally They're more stuck in the country and that's about it.