In contrast with last year the debate was frank and the team did not try to shy away from the subject.

Mr F. Hamlin, the only married member of the team, opened the debate for the affirmative saying he was not thinking in terms of ethics.

He referred to a film on the facts of life, recently shown in Wellington, drawing a large crowd, not because they wanted to learn the facts of life—they already knew—but because it was a film on sex.

Mr Hamlin gave a quick survey of sexual immorality and aberrations. He mentioned women having sexual experience with two men.

Interjector: "Is there something else then?"

Mr Hamlin contended it was difficult to get a real picture of sexual immorality among women. They were far more dishonest than men on the matter.

Mr Larsen, leader for the negative, consulted the dictionary, before talking about chastity. It said chastity meant abstinence from sexual intercourse outside marriage, and nothing more.

No Thrills

His dictionary did not talk about sexual thrills, girls experiences while watching passionate love scenes in the movies, as Mr Hamlin's dictionary apparently did.

Interjector: A poor dictionary. For chastity to be outmoded, it must have been moded at one time, Mr Larsen said. When was that time and why the change?

"I expect an answer," he added, looking at Mr Hamlin.

Mr Hamlin: "You'll get it."

He went on to say that the affirmative wanted continence, but not yet.

St. Augustine led an immoral life; he was weak. But he still believed in the ideal of chastity, in spite of his weakness.

Hamlin: "He tired himself out." "The affirmative say that the society approves of unchastity, but how does society deal with the unchaste?" Mr Larsen continued.

Voice: Most unfairly.

Offensive

The speaker drew the attention of the audience to the numerous statutory offences dealing with sexual immorality—rape, sexual intercourse with girls under 16, homosexuality, buggery. Even civil law frowned upon unchastity, by making adultery a ground for divorce. Under certain circumstances seduction was an actionable tort.

Society approved of people living chaste lives, but penalised people indulging in immoral sexual intercourse and perversions.

Mr Larsen concluded by saying Hitler wanted to populate the world with Nazi super-men. He gave his blond Teutonic men free rein. Hitler, the State, would look after the children.

Yet those children, children all over the world, were ostracised and called "bastards." Did society then approve of unchastity?

Experience

Mr Hogg, for the affirmative, accused the negative of vagueness and sentimentality. He said unchastity included other sexual experiences, such as masturbation.

Mr Larsen: The Oxford dictionary only talks about abstinence from extra-marital sexual intercourse.

Interjector: Not the French one.

The speaker said that he was not concerned whether chastity was outmoded or not in the past, but whether it was outmoded now.

"We are concerned with what people do now."

Today many youngsters masturbated. Repression resulted in buggery, homosexuality and so forth. In New Zealand the vicious concept of chastity had been discarded.

Too Many Too Soon

Statistics in New Zealand showed that many children were born out of wedlock or too soon. They proved that in 1958 copulation took place five million times in a population of two million odd people. The figures showed that unmarried people in New Zealand copulated four times a week.

He praised the young people for trying their shoes on before they bought them.

Expensive

Mr Roberts, for the negative, reminded the audience extra-marital sexual intercourse was damned Pre-sexual intercourse imperilled marriage. After marriage it was not so much fun anymore.

He personally interviewed men and women on the subject at great risk of life and limb.

One of the women had asked him: "Are you making any suggestions?"

He only interviewed five women and admitted he was rather light on women's interviews. In order to correct this situation he asked the women and girls in the audience to stand up if they thought that chastity was pernicious.

Immediately Miss C. Frost stood up, only to object to the personal suggestion made by Mr Roberts.

"Am I to take it, Miss Frost, that you do not believe in chastity?" he managed to ask her.

Exempt

Miss Frost was supported by the house, and the unchaste girls, if any, were exempt from stating their opinion in public.

After Mr Roberts concluded his speech, the motion was thrown open to speakers from the floor.

Mr A. MacNeill, a historian of merit, as well as a law student, said that if chastity was outmoded, the inference was that it must have been in fashion once.

This he denied. With great gusto he told the audience of numerous instances of immorality and sexual aberrations, from the early Christian period, right through the Middle Ages.

Young men and fair maidens used to go into the woods, and the great number of defiled maidens was unbelievable.

He was followed by speakers who sided with the negative. They argued along the well-known orthodox lines.

Prevention

One speaker threatened the audience with venereal diseases in a somewhat naive manner, apparently ignorant of the modern effective prevention and cure methods.

Yet another speaker, for the negative, said he didn't mind admitting his own weaknesses, but still believed in the ideal of chastity as St. Augustine did.

He said chastity was not outmoded. Though many nice young girls told him they preferred to marry a man with experience, they still believed in their own virginity.

Most men present would agree with him in that they preferred to page 2 marry a virgin, though not virgins themselves if only for the reason was that it was a greater sacrifice for a girl to give up her virginity than it was for a man.

Promiscuous

Once a girl had lost her virginity, it would be easier for her to give herself to other men. Then there was the danger of her becoming promiscuous.

Promiscuity in a girl would constitute a very shaky foundation for a marriage for the reason that most men preferred to marry either a virgin or a girl who had had only little sexual experience out of weakness for a man she really loved.

Sums Up

Mr Larsen began his summing-up by reminding the affirmative of the answer he had expected from them.

"If chastity is now outmoded, it must once have been in fashion. But we have had no answer from the affirmative in spite of their promise," he said.

Two speakers from the floor did reply, he added. They had shown that chastity had never been universal. This proved the wording of the motion was incorrect and could therefore not be supported on that ground alone.

He said he had shown that it was a contradiction that society approved what it disapproved of.

Coming to the ideal of chastity, the affirmative, with their "illicit thrills and statistics," only considered the factual situation. This was irrelevant. The affirmative should have shown whether society approved or disapproved of chastity.

"I mentioned the statutory punishments for rape, buggery, homosexuality. 'Bastard' is the word used for illegitimate children. Seduction is sometimes an actionable tort."

Mr Hamlin: "You're telling me."

Summing up for the affirmative, Mr Hamlin asked whether society lived up to the ideal of chastity. It did not. There was often a feelling of guilt, only because society on the surface frowned upon un-chastity.

Wide Practice?

The affirmative had not contradicted themselves. Was the ideal widely practised? That was not answered by the negative.

Referring to illegitimate children, Mr Hamlin had the audience spellbound when he talked about his own feelings as a father for his own children. There was a touch of oratory in his voice when he addressed the house in all sincerity.

"Whether children are born out of or in wedlock, who does not feel a great tenderness and love for the helpless creatures. They are called 'bastards', yet society does not frown upon them."

Voice: hear, hear.

Women now wanted chastity only for the sake of security.

Virgin Immaterial

A real man, worth his salt, married a girl because he loved her, not because she was a virgin. That should be immaterial.

Mr Roberts had talked about the costs of illegitimate children. That was a point in favour of the affirmative, Mr Hamlin concluded.

The motion was then put to the vote. Sixteen members of the house voted for the motion, 25 against.

The adjudicator was Mr D. Foy, a strong supporter of the Debating Society in 1950, and winner of the Plunket Medal.

Difficult

He said he realised that the affirmative had a difficult task. He commended all the speakers on their debating ability and said he appreciated the invitation extended to him.

He made a parting remark which gave the audience something to think about when they left:

"It is better to be born out of wedlock, than not to be born at all."