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Notes of Meetings Between His Excellency the Governor (Lord Ranfurly), The Rt. Hon. R. J. Seddon, Premier and Native Minister, and the Hon. James Carroll, Member of the Executive Council Representing the Native Race, and the Native Chiefs and People at Each Place, Assembled in Respect of the Proposed Native Land Legislation and Native Affairs Generally, During 1898 and 1899.

Meeting between the Premier and Chiefs of the Ngapuhi and other Tribes, at Waitangi, 16th March, 1899

Meeting between the Premier and Chiefs of the Ngapuhi and other Tribes, at Waitangi, 16th March, 1899.

The Premier (the Rt. Hon. R. J. Seddon), with the Hon. Mr. Carroll, met the Maoris at Waitangi, with a view of discussing certain matters with them. On landing on the beach, the visitors were received by Mr. Hone Heke, M. H. R., and a large number of Natives, and, headed by the Kaikohe Native band, proceeded to the church and the Waitangi obelisk.

Mr. Hone Heke, M.H.R.: I have been deputed to-day to submit various subjects on behalf of the people to Premier. We know that your time is limited here this morning, and I will therefore be as brief as possible. Firstly, we have to thank you for being so considerate as to stay, even for this day, to give us an opportunity of meeting you on business matters. On behalf of the people I have to thank you and your colleagues for the advice tendered to His Excellency to exercise the right of clemency in the matter of those unfortunate ones of our race who were incarcerated for their misdeeds. Sufficient on that point. As the result of our deliberations last night we decided that we should proceed at our meeting to put in proper order, and table, any grievances of a material nature, and also what we may arrive at after a fair and just discussion in regard to the proposals submitted to Parliament by the Government last session, as embodied in your Bill for establishing a system of Boards for the administration of Native lands. The result of our proceedings will be submitted in due course to the Government. There are, however, several grievances which we would like you to touch upon to-day in your address, such as, for instance, the surplus lands in the North of Auckland—lands which were formerly sold to early residents in undefined areas, and subsequently taken over by the Government. The Government enforced limitations as to area in regard to such purchases, the residue thereof being declared surplus lands, which the Crown has appropriated. It may be in the recollection of yourself and your ministry that, in connection with every petition we presented to Parliament on this subject, in almost every case the reports of the Native Affairs Committee went in the direction of recommending the appointment of a Commission to inquire into such grievance. We would like very much if you would deal with that question to-day. With regard to other matters which we think assume the proportions of local grievances, affecting our districts severally and collectively—such as the dog-tax question, and the one affecting our lands still uninvestigated—we do not wish to trouble you on this occasion. We will deliberate ourselves during the next few days in regard to them, and will acquaint the Government with what we arrive at. This embraces our programme, and we will now listen patiently to your utterances on the question touched upon.

The Hon. Mr. Carroll spoke at some length in Maori.

Mr. Hone heke: Having in view the fact that your time is limited, I refrain from going more into details; but I quite appreciate the suggestion that the position should be further explained. Now, with regard to our land still uninvestigated, the desire of the people is that they should remain as they are for the present, because if they are to be investigated by the Native Land Court, the people are note unanimous in their approval of the laws which operate at the present time. For instance, as soon as the title is issued to Natives for a block of land it gives the unthinking a status, which enables him to dispose of his means for his maintenance and the maintenance of all those immediately connected with him, and the old people are therefore very apprehensive. They would rather that the papatupu lands should remain as they are until some better lows can be brought into operation, with a view of lessening the expense which is at present incurred in the investigation of titles, and of preserving intact their inheritance, and also of supplying a method for the better utilisation of their land, which is to them life. With regard to the question of surplus lands, I may state that certain areas of such land have already been disposed of by the Government to Europeans. Notwithstanding that, however, there are still large areas in the hands of the Crown. This being so, we desire that a Commissioner should be appointed for the purpose of investigating into the equity of the cases. The Natives claim that the land is theirs, have advanced grounds in support of that claim. The Crown claims that it is Crown page 73land; and therefore it is a claim between two, which should be investigated and settled. With regard to the dog-tax, I beg to state that there are several parts of the districts in which sheep-farming is not carried on at all; and although the County Council have made roads within the territories, including special Native districts, such roads do not tap the Native settlements. It is our desire that the Government should relieve us of the imposition of that tax, if it has the power so to do, which I believe it has. Under the provisions of the Dog Registration Act, the Governor, by the advice of his Responsible advisers, can set apart special districts as being exempt from the operation of the Dog Act. Of course, I am aware that the County Councils in collecting this tax do not collect it so much for revenue as a possible preventative against Native dogs worrying sheep. There is therefore a justification for our appeal. In all districts where there are no sheep the tax should certainly be abolished.

The premier: In going through the districts, one thing that has been brought under my notice was the question of paying rates on Native lands. As I know that this is in your mind, it is as well that we should bring it out into the light of day. I therefore ask you to speak your mind upon this.

Mr. Hone Heke: With regard to the question of rating Native lands, the wish of our hearts—i.e., the Maori mind—is that we should be free from rates; and, although efforts in the direction of repudiating our obligations on that question have been made, we realise that it is inevitable, and the best we can do on the question is to trust and hope that the Government in its wisdom might make the rates on Native lands as light as possible, which would be justified under the difficulties and impositions of our many laws now in operation affecting Native lands. That is about as much as we can hope for. The Natives naturally revolt at the idea of paying rates. I can quite understand that is a matter which interests the natives largely indeed, and that in the course of your journeying in other districts the Native chiefs have spoken to you about it, and have put it in the position of a grievance. The question has to be viewed in its practical from, and it must be accepted as an inevitable proceeding. Our efforts therefore should be in the direction of making it as light as possible. We will leave the matter in the hands of the Government, hoping that they will do what they consider is fair and just. If they can relieve the Native people of the harshness and the burden of that tax, we shall be very glad indeed, and our hearts would rejoice. We do yet hope that the Government will soften the effect of the law with regard to the Natives.

The Premier: In respect to the question of dealing with the native lands which are note at present occupied by the Natives, but about which they are anxious something should be done, I should like to know their mind upon this. I desire to have the opinion of the Natives in this part, and in other parts of the colony, as to dealing with the vast tracts of unoccupied Native lands in the North Island.

Mr. Hone Heke; With regard to the land uninvestigated, the ownership of which has not been ascertained, the older generations of Natives desire that these lands should be left as they are at present, for the reasons that they are afraid of the tremendous expense the natives are put to in ascertaining the titles, and in surveys; and, moreover, they fear that the existing laws will not lighten their burdens. All the old people are unanimous upon this question. Now, in regard to unoccupied lands which have been through the Native Land Court, and the titles to which have been ascertained, the Natives desire that these should be preserved for them for their maintenance. The difficulty which at the present prevents the utilisation of these land is the heavy expense they would have to bear in the performance of all dealings for the completion of required contracts affecting the lands. The desire, therefore, is that simpler and less expensive methods of treatment be brought into operation. In dealing with these lands under the present laws, it may be necessary to have a subdivision or individualisation of the shares or interests. The survey in this case is absolutely necessary. This performance is exceedingly expensive. Then comes the investigation by the Court; in fact, every move, every act which brings the present machinery into force is attended with disaster. So much so is this the case, that were all the land sold that has been dealt with, the proceeds would be swallowed up in the preliminary expenses and otherwise attachable to such performances. All the old people are therefore of one mind on this question. I would here point out the difference between the older old the younger generations. The younger generations are actuated solely by a desire to realise. They have no reverence for the soil which has fed them, and brought them into existence. The older generations, however, have an affection and reverence for the land of their forefathers; they like to see it preserved and made useful to them. I think I have explained to you, as far as I possibly can, the feeling of the old people throughout this district. There is one more question which I wish to touch upon; it is as to rating on papatupu lands. It is the desire of the old people to know whether the local bodies can rate such land. I have told them that I do not think the local bodies have the power to do so. However, they want an answer from you on the subject.

Hone peti: I rise in response to your asking for further particulars in regard to the question of surplus lands, just touched upon by Mr. Hone Heke. I desire to say that when the Premier was page 74at Waima, some few years ago, I gave him the history of the surplus lands question from its inception down to the present time, and how we have suffered over it.

The Premier: I still keep that in my memory.

Hone peti: Your reply on that occasion was that I should frame a petition and give it is Mr. Hone Heke, our representative here, to present to Parliament, where it would be considered. I would like to know what has been the result of that petition. We are extremely anxious to know whether the Government has taken any steps in connection with the matter, and, if so, what it proposes to do. You will find all the particulars contained in the various petitions sent to Parliament. At the time I refer to, it was suggested that a Commission should be appointed to inquire into the matter, and Mr. Hone Heke informed me that a recommendation had been submitted to the Government, and that the Government was considering the advisability of setting up such a Commission. This is all with regard to that subject. Another matter I desire to touch upon is with respect to the rates levied on our lands. Now, certain of our lands are subject to rates. These we paid on a certain valuation; but this year we are notified that the rates have been increased by some 11s., and we view this with alarm, and ask ourselves what kind of work is this. One day we know what our responsibilities and liabilities are, and the next day they are increased: and they keep on increasing. We really do not know where the end will be. I think it is only right the Government should give attention to our position in respect to this matter. We do not fail to pay our rates; we are not deaf to the calls made upon us for rates, but what we are disturbed about is the fear that these rates will keep increasing year after year, and it is only on account of the alarm we feel in consequence of what I have said that we are apprehensive for the future. Therefore I pray the Premier to look carefully into these matters, and if there is any possible way of lightening the load on us unfortunates I hope he will assist in doing so. We do not refuse to pay. We respond to the call for rates, but we are apprehensive.

The Premier: To the Chiefs of the Ngapuhi, and to the several chiefs from the tribes in other parts of the colony here present, Salutations, good wishes, good health, and every blessing to you all. This meeting to-day brings to me great joy. As you know, being Native Minister, I am the ministerial father of the Natives by virtue of the position I hold. As a father is pleased to me his children, so it gives me very great pleasure to meet you on this occasion. With me to-day a one of your own race, who represents you in the Cabinet. That representative, my worthy friend and colleague, Mr. Carroll, with myself and the other members of the Government, desire to do that which is for the lasting benefit of the native race. At great inconvenience, therefore, we came here to meet you and to ascertain your feelings and your aspirations. If there are grievances existing you should now lay them before us. We desire to meet the Native race in the same way that Europeans are met. Ministers go from place to place to hear what Europeans have to say them. They then submit these matters to Cabinet, and, if redress is fond necessary, measures are submitted to Parliament with this object. I again repeat, that we desire to give both races the same treatment. So it is the case with Europeans that once they have the opportunity of allowing the tongue to give vent to their feelings it gives relief to their mind. So it is with the Natives. Let them have the opportunity of making known their wants and grievances, if any exist, and I feel sure that good will result, both in the direction of having the grievances remedied and in relieving their minds. As in the past your ancestors had their meeting together to exchange thoughts and to clear up subjects which perplexed them, so to-day it is as well that you should meet together to discuss and arrive at conclusions upon matters which should be for your good, and, in fact, for the good of both races. I therefore view with pleasure the federal gathering which you have with you hear. You have the chiefs and the repesentatives of the Natives from the different parts of the colony. The conditions vary in different parts; what is suitable for one locality may not be so for another. The Natives in other parts may therefore hold different views, and it is only by meeting together that you can arrive at conclusions which will enable the Government and Parliament to deal with these matters on lines beneficial to the natives in all parts of the colony. Now, when His Excellency the Governor was here yesterday you exercised a consideration for the Europeans that reflected very much credit upon you. The consideration to which I refer is when you and your chiefs refrained from placing various matters before the representative of the Queen. I know that in your hearts you desired to do so; but as you had given your word that you would not detain him long, so as to enable the Europeans to have an opportunity of paying their respects to him, you by that action did full justice to the chiefs and the Native race generally. I will now give you the mind of His Excellency, the representative sentative of your Mother, our good and beloved Queen. He would have liked to have heard more from you, but as you had made arrangements with the Europeans that pleasure was denied him. Again this morning, owing to the limited time which I can give to you, you have been very considerate by putting your views before me through Mr. Hone Heke, after having discussed the various matters fully amongst yourselves last evening, though without giving me full information respecting them, although I took the earliest opportunity of relieving you from that situation by asking that you should give me fuller information respecting the several matters which I know page 75have engaged your attention. I am very glad that I did this, because it places me in a better position to deal with them later on. It is more important for you to place before me fully the several maters of importance to you than for me to give you the mind of the Government upon subjects which had only been briefly touched upon. If a person is sick in body he goes to a doctor. The doctor naturally asks him where the pain lies, and what has caused it. It is only after he has got these particulars that he is able to apply the remedy. Hence my reason for asking what your difficulties are. As the head of the Government and Minister of the Native race I ask you to let me know where your pains lie, so that I may be able to remove them.

The Recent Trouble.

You thank the Government and myself for having tendered the advice we did to His Excellency the Governor to use the clemency of the Crown on behalf of those who had broken the law, and who are suffering in consequence of their misdeeds. Now, I will take you back to the time of the trouble. It was the most painful and anxious time I have had since I have been Minister of the Native race. With it there was a great responsibility thrown upon the Government and myself. A few misguided men might have been the cause of bloodshed and loss of life, and such injury to the Native race as could never have been repaired. Your ancestors had implicit faith in the Queen, their Mother. They had so much confidence in her that they placed in her hands their lives, their lands, and everything else that they possessed. The did this for protection, and were placed on the same footing as the Europeans. Your forefathers were quite right, for it is the strong power of the law which must be your protection. Parliament passes the laws, which are approved of by the Queen. The law for the protection of life and property is placed in the hands of the Government to administer, and this is your salvation. If it were not for the strong power of the low, the great majority, all powerful, would crush the minority. You are the minority. I therefore say to you in all sincerity, Look to the law for protection; see that the law is observed, and let there never again be any desire on the part of a foolish few to violate the law, for if the law is violated, the result might be the destruction of your race. You are only the remnant of a once powerful, ever noble, and hospitable race—one of the finest races that has ever existed and which has been protected by the British flag; and it is the earnest desire of the Government and of all in this country that the strong power of the law shall be used for your preservation. If, however, you break the law, how can you expect its aid to protect your lives and property? To-day there are only some forty thousand of your race in this country, whilst there are some seven hundred thousand white people. Speaking for the pakehas in New Zealand, I assure you that their desire is to help you, to succour you, and to preserve you. But you will weaken that desire if you break the law by threatening to destroy property and to take life. In this way trouble might be caused which would never be forgotten, and you would weaken that tie of love which exists between the two races. I said a few minutes ago that on learning there was danger of serious trouble I did not know of anything that I have had to do since I have been Native Minister which pained me so much, as to feel compelled to send an armed force here to see that law and order were maintained. I know that the Native chiefs, and that those who love the Native race who were here in the district at the time of the trouble, were just as much pained, just as much grieved, as I was; and I consider that this colony is deeply indebted to those chiefs who rushed to the spot where the trouble was to hold conference with the disaffected ones and to prevent serious trouble arising. Both races are deeply indebted to Mr. Hone Heke, Mr. Clendon (Stipendiary Magistrate), the Rev. Mr. Gittos, and to the chiefs and Europeans who by their wise counsel helped to stop what threatened to be serious trouble. I therefore take this opportunity of being in the district to thank them very sincerely on behalf of the Government for the services rendered to both races on that occasion. There were Native chiefs in other parts of the colony who sent communications, earnestly entreating those causing the trouble to abide by the law. Every power that they possessed was exercised to prevent serious trouble arising. Now I will take your memories back to a communication which was sent by me to the gathering at Waima. In this I said that the law must be observed—that those who had broken the law must submit to it, and that if they did this it would afterwards be a matter for the Government to decide as to when the punishment should end. They submitted to the law, and they have behaved themselves whilst confined in prison, and as there was a general wish on the part of their friends here, and as the Government have had the assurance that there will be no further trouble, and the law having been complied with, the Government considered that it would be a convenient opportunity at this great historic meeting, for the Governor, as the representative of Her Majesty the Queen, the law having been vindicated, to exercise the Royal clemency. The Government desired to let it be seen that there was no feeling whatever in the matter; and we further desired that your friends should be brought back to you in commemoration of this day. Now, to show you that the law is no respecter of persons, I desire to say that we punished the pakehas who had broken the law by selling arms to the Natives. Some of them were fined heavily. And one of them was put into gaol with those of your race who had broken the law. Those, who violate it, whether Europeans or Natives, must put up with page 76the consequences. The law must be maintained, no matter at what cost, because it is by upholding the law that we preserve your lives and property. When there was trouble in the minds of the Natives of this district, when they were pouri, certain business-men, knowing that to be the case, sold them firearms and ammunition. In my opinion, these Europeans deserved a more severe punishment than the Natives themselves. I will show you now how that action has injured other Natives in the colony. It was only a few years ago that the Government introduced a Bill into Parliament with the view of allowing the Natives to purchase arms and ammunition without restriction. Parliament did not then pass the Bill, but as things were going on peaceably, the time was not far distant when it would become law. Had it not been for the trouble of last year there would have been no restriction; but all that is now stopped, owing to the action of selling these arms, and the Natives throughout the whole colony are injured in consequence; the in innocent are made to suffer by the action of the selfish, ill-guided, and rash. Enough of this. The cloud that has hovered over you for some time has now passed away, and I hope it may never reappear and that you may live together, love each other, and assist each other as years roll on. Yesterday the Europeans deputationised me, asking the clemency for those who had violated the law in providing the Natives with firearms; they asked that, as the Natives had regained their liberty, the same clemency should be extended to the Europeans. My answer was that they should petition the Government. Let their petition go before the Judge, and let us know the particulars, so that we may know how far they were to blame in respect to giving means to the Natives to take life. On the result of that investigation will rest the decision of the Government. The European who helps the Natives and who assists to protect and guide them has my respect and love, and will receive every encouragement from me; but the European who poisons the minds of the Natives for his own purposes, and gives them means to break the law, will receive no mercy from me or my colleagues. There may, however, by exceptional cases, and it will be for us to deal fairly and impartially with them when the petitions come before us. In the meantime I wish to let you see that we are determined that Europeans shall keep the law, just as we are determined the Natives race shall do so. Enough of that. My heart was gladdened yesterday when I heard the statements come from the chiefs assembled that they and their people were determined to observe the law; that they loved the Queen, their mother; that they would do their best to preserve law and order, and that there would be peace between the two races. Those cheering words are still fresh in my ears. It was that pledge given in the light of day by your chiefs and the others assembled yesterday which had a good deal to do with the clemency of the Crown being exercised, and which resulted in the gates of the place in which your friends were confined being opened, and in your friends being restored to you. Always keep to that pledge which you gave yesterday in the presence of His Excellency Lord Ranfurly, the representative in this colony of your Mother the Queen. (Applause.)

Surplus Lands.

I now come to the business submitted to-day. The first is the question of dealing with the surplus lands sold by the Natives without the areas or boundaries being properly defined, and in which, when the boundaries were afterwards ascertained, it was found that there was more land land contained in those boundaries than was anticipated by the Natives who parted with the lands. The chief who referred to what took place on a former occasion at Waima, stated the position very correctly. He also related correctly what occurred when your member, Mr. Hone Heke, informed him that I had agreed that the matter should be dealt with by the Government; that in all probability an inquiry would take place. I will now tell you a little of the inquiry made by the Government. In the first place, we found a very large amount of land claimed to be surplus land had been disposed of by the Government, and that it was now occupied by settlers. We also found very great difficulties in the way, in so far as those who could give evidence as to the boundaries have been gathered to their forefathers. After the lapse of so many years, you will readily understand how difficult it is to reopen a question of so much importance. You have, however, relieved the situation by saying you do not wish any inquiry to be made as regards the lands disposed of by the Crown. As to the other lands which are still in the hands of the Crown, and which have not been dealt with, I do not see the same difficulty in the way of having further inquiry made. What is running through my mind at the present time is that the Government would not admit that there had been any error on its part, or that there was any right on the part of the Natives. There is, however, such a thing as equity; there is such a thing as expediency. When I mentioned the word "expediency" I was thinking of a matter which is painful to me—namely, that there are a large number of landless Natives, not only here but in other parts of the colony. I think it would be an act of grace on the part of the State if it were to give to the tribes and hapus of those who claim to have given those surplus lands—if they were to give the landless Natives of the different tribes and hapus those surplus lands, if it were possible to allocate them. (Applause.) I will therefore submit your representation to my colleagues. We will go into the matter fully, and I will let you know the mind of the Government through your member, probably next session. (Applause.)

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Dog-Tax.

I now come to vexed question which is small in itself, but which has carried a great deal of ill-feeling—I allude to the question of the dog-tax. Like most aboriginals, the Maori loves his dog. In that respect I may say you are not unlike many of the Europeans, for in the county in England where I come from we have a saying, "He who strikes my dog strikes me.' There is a good deal of force in what you say in respect to the districts where the dogs do not worry sheep, for the reason that there are no sheep to worry, and the argument for the strict enforcement of the law in those parts of the colony has really no force. I am going to speak plainly, and tell you that I do think the local bodies, or those employed by them, have not acted judiciously or wisely or in the best interests of both races, in at least two counties, in the manner in which they have administered the law. (Applause.) Had serious trouble arisen, —and I say it with a due sense of responsibility, —I should have cast upon the members of those local bodies some of the blame. There is such a thing as administering the law in such a way that it does not bear harshly; and I claim that the Maoris are entitled to consideration just as the Europeans are. For instance, take the case of the Mongonui County. There the same law exists, but an arrangement was made between the County Council and the Natives. The latter said they would be responsible—that they would promise to destroy a lot of these useless curs, and to keep only useful dogs, and that if any damage was done they would take steps to compensate the sufferers; they said they would take the responsibility if they were not troubled about the tax. I have it on the assurance of the County Chairman that this arrangement had proved satisfactory to all concerned, and I never heard a word about the dog-tax when going through that county; yet the same two races are living there. The amount of revenue involved is very trifling indeed. If every penny of the dog-tax in this and the adjoining county was kept for the next hundred years it would not come to as much as the trouble it last year cost the colony, to say nothing of the pain that has been occasioned. (Applause.) As I have said, however the Government must uphold the law, for once it is put in motion it is to be carried out. But the question is, whether or not arrangements could not be come to under which harmony between the two races could be promoted, whilst at the same time the law would be maintained. I hope that my words will have the effect of causing the local bodies to consider the position from this standpoint, for I feel sure that if that course is adopted it will avoid the necessity for Parliament taking the matter into consideration. If, however, nothing is done, it will be for the Government to take the responsibility of submitting the matter to Parliament, so that the necessary power may be given under which, whilst seeing that the law is strictly carried out, we may deal with any exceptional circumstances necessitating the operation of the law being held in abeyance in any particular locality. Speaking with a due sense of responsibility, I say that if I were a settler in the district I would rather appoint a Maori committee from each kainga to keep down the dog nuisance than I would enforce the law to do it. They certainly have a better chance of knowing the dog of bad habits; and if the responsibility of destroying him were thrown upon them there would be a better chance of removing the trouble than there is at the present time, for the reason that the dog that would kill the sheep of Europeans would also kill those belonging to the Maoris.

Necessity for Settling Native Land Question.

As to uninvestigated titles to lands, or papatupu land, you ask that the further investigation be suspended until such time as better laws could be brought into operation and it can be done at a less cost. That request is very reasonable. I am of your opinion: that our Native land laws are at the present time far from perfect; that the expense of investigation is too great. I think that the law requires amendment, and I therefore do not blame you for asking that it be suspended in the meantime. To show you that I believe to some extent in the view you take, I will just mention that we have decided to reduce the number of Native Land Court Judges, and it would not be a bad thing for the Natives if within a very short time the work was finished and the Court closed altogether. (Applause.) Some of the subdivisions which I have seen and the allocations made are simply absurd. For instance, I have seen one about three chains wide and about three miles long. I think the best way would be for some tribunal to decide who were the owners of a certain block of land, and in the case of other blocks, probably not in the same district, but belonging to the same hapus, common-sense would say that if after they decided who were the owners they would submit plans to the tribes and the owners, and say, "This is your land; decide amongst yourselves the boundaries, and if you have settled that, we will finally decide that will be your land." Such a system would give a sufficient area for the owner to live on the land with his family. Under the present system the area in many cases is practically useless. We have gone to a large expense in ascertaining the titles and making the subdivisions. Not withstanding this, the land, so far as settlement is concerned, is as far off being settled as ever, although it has been loaded with all this expense. I wish to impress this upon you: that great pressure is brought to bear to have the Native land question settled, because opening up the country is retarded, and the construction of roads and other means of communication is stopped.

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Something must be done speedily. If, therefore, at this gathering you arrive at conclusions which will help to solve the difficulty I will be quite prepared to give them the fullest consideration. You have the Native land proposals of the Government generally outlined in the Bill submitted last session. Give them your serious consideration; weigh the proposals well, because their object is for the benefit of your race. I beg to assure you that our earnest desire is to pass such laws as will serve the interests of the owners, and at the same time secure the lands being open for settlement. My own view is that we shall never pass a law which will please every tribe and hapu in the colony. But what we want is to give them defined permissive systems which they can adopt. So long as we have the land thrown open for settlement our duty is performed. It is a reflection upon Parliament, it is a reflection upon us all, to know that there are Natives in this colony richly endowed with land who are nevertheless going about the country poverty-stricken and penniless. I am inclined to the opinion that, under any Act we pass, a Commission should be appointed for the different districts composed of both races. The Commissioners so appointed should have absolute power in the adjustment of the present subdivisions. They should have the power of saying who shall go upon the land in the different localities. Further, they should decide who the land belongs to, and be able to say that there shall be no more money wasted in going to law. It is better to settle who is to have the rent than to let the land be eaten up in law-costs. I therefore earnestly impress upon you the necessity of helping the Government to settle this vexed Native-land question. Differences of opinion of a serious and important nature exists as between the old generations and the younger generation of the Native race. I agree with the old Maori chiefs, who were wise in wishing to retain and lease their lands so that they and their children could live on and from them; and I do not sympathize with the younger generation, who want to have the titles ascertained so that they can sell the land, squander the proceeds, and have merry time. If the desires of the younger men were given effect to it would not be long before all the Maori land would slip from them; and I hold that it is not their land to dispose of and squander away. What remains ought to be handed down to those coming after them, just as it was handed to them by their ancestors. (Applause.) Therefore I believe in conserving for all time sufficient land for the maintenance, not only of the present generation of Natives, but of a largely increased number which I hope we shall have in the future. If the land is gone, how are they and their children to live? I will now leave that important question, with the hope that you will help the Government to satisfactorily solve the Native-land question in the interest of both races.

Is Papatupu Land Ratable?

Now, as to rates on Native lands: The first question is whether papatupu land is ratable. My own view of the law is that all Maori lands are ratable within a prescribed distance of roads, and that the Government has power in special cases to exempt. I will now explain why an increase in the rates would have been made. The same thing is done in the case of European lands, for as the land increases in value, so do the rates increase, and vice versa. I do not think, however, that reductions are often made. I will now show you a way out of the difficulty, which I hope your member will be able to see his way to support. We propose that no improvements shall be rated, and that there shall only be a tax upon the unimproved value of the land, just as for land-tax purposes. If the unimproved value were taken for rating purposes only, then these increases which you complain of would no take place, and we should have all the Europeans supporting the taxing of land upon the unimproved value, because it is a shame to take more from you on account of your having improved your properties more. Therefore I hope that you will support us in what we are proposing to Parliament—namely, to rate on unimproved value. (Applause.)

The Collection of Rates.

Now, in respect to the rates already collectable, a good many of you do not pay them at all. I am told that in one of the counties there were sixty cases sent to the Supreme Court for the Registrar to register against the lands for rates that had not been paid. In cases like these the responsibility is, of course, with the local bodies. They have to maintain the roads, which you use just as much as the Europeans, and where you are working your lands it is just as right that you should pay rates as Europeans. I am now going to show, however, that in this case, as in others, the local bodies do not act consistently. I shall show you that where the local bodies could get more money than from rates from the Maoris or from the dog-tax they are actually not collecting at all. I allude to the license-fees for gum-digging. The Kauri-gum Industry Act was passed in the interest of the Native race as well as in the interest of the European settlers, and also in the interest of the Europeans digging for gum. The local bodies have no right to let that revenue go by default, especially when they ask the Government to maintain the law as regards rates and dog-taxes. You Natives have large tracts of land upon which gum is found, and a large number of you are digging for gum. The Legislature has said, "We will protect the Native race by allowing them to dig on the reserves; and we will protect them from the large influx of aliens, who refrain from complying with the law." This law to protect the Natives, but it has been ignored by the page 79aliens and local bodies. If you were allowed to dig gum under these conditions you could pay your rates and dog-tax. Let the local bodies do their duty, and if they call upon the Government we will do ours, but let them act fairly and impartially towards every one in the counties. There is at least one exception to the rule—I refer to the Mongonui County Council, which has carried out the wishes of the Legislature, and by doing so has received from these sources over £1,000. The next time these local bodies come to the Government and ask for money for roads I will tell them to go and collect their own revenue first: they force you to pay your dog-tax and rates, as far as the law will permit, and at the same time allow other people to escape scot-free. This, I say, is not fair. If the local bodies will administer the laws fairly and impartially, my opinion is that the Natives will observe the laws. I believe if the Natives were treated fairly, firmly, and impartially, we would have no trouble with them.

Conclusion.

I do not know that there is anything further to refer to. I trust we shall from this time forward go on and work together for the benefit of both races. I also hope that my views on the various questions, and my replies to your communications, have been to your satisfaction, and that, as a result of this meeting, good will result to both races in all parts of the colony, and especially to those residing in the north of Auckland. For many months I have longed to meet you as we have met to-day. Your member will tell you, although he and I differ on several political questions, that in respect to the Natives it is the earnest desire of the Government to do What is just and right, and he fully believes the Government to be earnest and serious in their desire to promote your well-being. On my journeys through the various districts I made inquiries from Europeans, and was told that some of the tribes here were still pouri, and that there was trouble brewing, When they told me this I was pained, and I made up my mind, if at all possible, to clear away all the dark clouds. I feel that your meeting the Governor and myself face to face has been for good. In the morning the mist is in the valleys, and sometimes in the winter the mountains are covered with snow, but as the sun rises he clears away the mist, and the summer sun melts away the snow. What was wanting to clear away the dark clouds that have been hanging over you was that those in authority should have your confidence, and that you yourselves should realize that is only by both races working together that this can be done. Our meeting together, and the interchange of thoughts and explanation of actions that has taken place, will, I feel sure, help to remove all doubts and misgivings. I earnestly hope that the confidence now established may remain after you are gathered to your forefathers, and that it may continue for all time. You should say, "Let us keep on the lines laid down by our ancestors at time the Treaty of Waitangi was signed on this historic spot." If this is done there will be no further dark clouds. There is room enough for all. Let us live as one people in love and friendship, and enjoy the good things provided for us by Atua, our Creator. May you increase in numbers until you become as powerful as you were at the time of signing of the Treaty of Waitangi. May the love which the two races had for each other when you were powerful and the Europeans weak be renewed, and may the hospitality which you then showed to the Europeans be now shown by them to you. May every comfort and blessing provided by an all-wise and ever-seeing Providence be showered upon you.

Mr. Hone Heke: Could you ascertain from the Crown Law Officers whether papatupu lands are rateable?

The Premier: Yes; if situate within the road-distance limit.

Mr. Hone Heke: I have a further request to make on behalf of the chiefs present, and that is that these speeches be printed in pamphlet form, and placed within the reach of every Native throughout New Zealand.

The Premier: I, with pleasure, consent to the request to have the speeches printed and circulated as desired.

Mr. Hone Heke: I have to thank you and your colleague for coming to meet us to-day and addressing us in the way you have done. I would ask you to leave all the matters mentioned in your speech in our hands. We will meet after you have gone and seriously discuss the very important matters enumerated in your speech. I am sure every one here will join with me in the expression of gladness at the events of the last two days. We are glad that on your return to Wellington you will consider these matters, and will announce to me, or us, the result of your Cabinet decision.